Shoe Damage Report & Shoe P0rn Central - Part II

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Oyaji, Feb 20, 2010.

  1. Burton

    Burton Senior member

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    Ugh. I own both and love C&J but there is a distinct difference in the weight --and to me--quality of the shoes. No knock at all on C&J very underrated here but EG are worth the money.
     
  2. meister

    meister Senior member

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    I have 3 pairs of EGs and about 4 pairs of C&J in HG and BG. I'd have to say the EG is a very comfortable shoe - more so than C&J.

    I would think C&Jare more rugged and would last longer though than EG IMO but with a big rotation I will probably never find out.

    The C&J seems to have a stronger construction to me. As for leather I can't see the difference. But price wise - EG are totally over the top at full retail for the quality of manufacture.

    Design wise - C&J are way ahead and compared to the Italians and French EG is not in the race. But I always understood that EG was supposed to be a sober and classy English shoe and that is the niche they continue to fill.

    I like vintage shoes because if you get good ones they cover all the bases.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2012
  3. Burton

    Burton Senior member

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    I like the designs of the C&Js, as well. EGs just are not made to be fashioin forward. Maybe a bit backward, but that's deliberate.
     
  4. isshinryu101

    isshinryu101 Senior member

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    Take a plain, traditional style & color it purple... it's still a plain, traditional style- just a purple one.

    However, this is NOT a criticism. If you're into basic, traditional styles, your collection is certainly top notch. I can understand enjoying the "classics" and NOT knock those that do.
     
  5. isshinryu101

    isshinryu101 Senior member

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    agreed.


    Funny thing is that many of the makers now "pushing the envelope" (Bestetti, G&G, etc) are often found to be reviving 30's, 40's & 50's vintage styles & detailing to attain the their unique looks.
     
  6. jhcam8

    jhcam8 Senior member

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    I agree with the two shoe-meisters (!) - EG has a particular market it targets. It's also apparent that the majority of the major mfg's copy each other and make many booooooring shoes.

    It's also apparent that many men need fairly classic shoes or at least shoes that don't call too much attention to them. Those who have the luxury of not having to conform can experiment, if they dare.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2012
  7. Gdot

    Gdot Senior member

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    Agreed, and I do indeed love the looks.

    Herein is a small lesson in the truth of 'timeless classicism'. There really is no such thing to some degree. Really it's a large inventory of elements which are relentlessly tweaked, manipulated, and otherwise toyed with over and over again. Isn't it fun?
     
  8. jerrybrowne

    jerrybrowne Senior member

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    [/quote]

    Ugh. I own both and love C&J but there is a distinct difference in the weight --and to me--quality of the shoes. No knock at all on C&J very underrated here but EG are worth the money.[/quote]

    +1. To me there is a big difference between EG and CJ. Not only is EG lighter and better made, but ages more gracefully.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2012
  9. SpooPoker

    SpooPoker Internet Bigtimer and Most Popular Man on Campus Dubiously Honored Affiliate Vendor

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    Son of Saphir is one of the most underrated posters on this forum.
     
  10. Gdot

    Gdot Senior member

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    I somehow don't believe this was Hendrix's point. As it seems obvious to me that we all realize that a machine welted shoe is not truly handmade. But perhaps I presume to much. Given that I presumed we all know machine welted shoes are not truly handmade shoes I took it to mean that if one is spending $500 one would do well to buy handmade shoes. When in fact you seem to be saying his meaning was that no machine made was worth over $500? In either interpretation I don't agree with the statement but do find the latter interpretation more plausible than the former. As I am not aware any truly handmade shoes in the $500 price range.

    Even though I am very green to this topic I would say that my current thinking is that you are entirely accurate in stating that there is little 'practical' difference between machine welted and glued shoes, based only on the welting method. It seems to me that many here are way to focused on the welting methods as a shortcut to determining overall value/quality. Further I find it baffling, as you do, what truely differentiates a $400 shoe from a $500 or even $600 shoe in terms of craftsmenship/construction quality. I propose most of the differences are those which are visible (materials, finishing, and design related costs). I don't know. I'm asking your opinion, as I truly value it.

    Further, I have no doubt whatsoever that a truly handmade shoe, created as the labor of a dedicated artistan is worth every penny of the prices charged. I'm sure they are actually worth more. I do take issue with the implication as I see it in your statement above that matters of design are not also of value when determining 'quality'. Is the creation of, and implementation of a highly artistic design, not also a labor which must be acknowledged and thus have value assigned to it? Thus making two shoes of identical construction but with dissimilar designs of potentially different 'qualites'. Perhaps, as a professional whose career, and success, is largely related to matters of design I am overly sensitive to the topic of design value. So please excuse me if I have rendered an interpretation of your statements that is not what you intended to convey.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2012
  11. bengal-stripe

    bengal-stripe Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    That is right

    Here is a pair of hand-welted shoes of abominable standard (let the maker be nameless). The welt-stitches are either spaced too far apart and/or not pulled tight enough, leaving a gap which is not only unsightly but will also let water penetrate easily.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    There is an old shoemaker's maxim:
    "Small stitches make quality work, large stitches buy you bread!"

    Don't let anyone be fooled that made by hand and with hand-tools is the guarantor for quality work. Shoemakers cut as much corners as anyone else.


    I rather prefer a gemmed welt produced on a well set-up machine than that sloppy (hand) workmanship.
     
  12. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    I could be wrong but that's the way I read it. In any case, it has long been my point.

    It's not a bad measure. The way a shoe is put together determines how long it will retain its shape, its fit, its integrity.

    It's also a pretty fair indication of how much time and energy and consideration has gone into the conceptualization as well as the implementation of the idea of a shoe--what its function is, what the expectations are for it, how is it intended/expected to fit, support nurture and protect.

    As you suggest gemming is, at bottom, cement construction. In that sense, it is always an expediency and something masquerading as something else in order to engage the customer or observer. Yet entirely without the intrinsic capacity to live up to what it is pretending to be.

    As an expediency, it is a pretty fair one--it's quick, it's easy, it's cheap and it is not dependent on skill or quality materials to implement.

    .

    Well, this is the question isn't it? If you think about it...even in the most "efficient" operation there is a minimal cost of production to make leather. The price of the hide. The cost of the tanning extracts/chemicals. The finishing chemicals--dyes, etc.. The labour. And to be fair, some leathers are very definitely of better quality than others. But $400.00 worth? Will a domestic US calf skin cost triple to produce what it costs to produce an Italian calfskin? Quadruple?

    And when you get right down to it, it's a lot like gemmed shoes--if you start out with a raw hide from a yearling calf and subject it to three weeks (?) in a chrome bath and other processes, is it going to be really and truly triple or quadruple the quality of another cheaper calf leather that has gone through a nearly identical process? The raw materials are the same, the tanning processes the same...the finishing may differ but marginally so and for the most part only superficially.

    ???

    I am not sure any of us knows what the value of a RTW shoe is. Are the $100.00 shoes fair value or a bargain at twice the price? Are the $500.00 shoes overpriced or simply filling the demand for "luxury" (?--cachet) goods to the masses?
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2012
  13. Gdot

    Gdot Senior member

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    +1
     
  14. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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    You do have an amazing collection of vintage exotic shoes!!

    That being said, every shoe maker had to make something out of ordinary to stand out of amongst pack. Such as G&G with its modern English chisel toe, Corthay and its PTB, Vass and its Budapester, or C&J and its French influenced 337 last. EG is still the place to go for quintessential British shoe. JL is slightly too French, IMO.

    This is a very good point!
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2012
  15. SpooPoker

    SpooPoker Internet Bigtimer and Most Popular Man on Campus Dubiously Honored Affiliate Vendor

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    Very good way to look at it.
     

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