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shoe construction...behind the veil

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by DWFII, Jul 24, 2010.

  1. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    That's right but...as I said...gemming evolved from there. From that reinforcement.
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. MoneyWellSpent

    MoneyWellSpent Senior member

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    DW's picture is definitely a JM Weston.

    @bengal-stripe Gemming, as a term, came into existence as reinforcement for the cut and turned leather, so it is technically gemming. Just a more historical version of it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2017
    1 person likes this.
  3. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Why wait? There are literally hundreds of people here hanging on bated breath waiting for you to, with one set of pictures from one expedition, debunk all the solid evidence (photographic experiential or simply rational) from various other sources to the contrary so that they can justify their dismissal of the very notion of quality. Or a quality that someone like Stephane (or even myself) might, in the throes of mad devotion / dedication, define or propose. Real lifelong shoemakers, IOW.

    edited for punctuation and clarity
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2017
  4. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    I am always impressed and gratified by your fair mindedness. Thank you.
     
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  5. Nick V.

    Nick V. Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Well apparently my earlier post was able to be read by some. I saw it then it disappeared. Maybe it's my stupidity communicating on-line. If that's the case I'll own up and apologize for that.
    DW, I have no problem with you re-posting my remarks for those who my have not the ability to read them.

    sym·me·try
    ˈsimətrē/
    noun
    the quality of being made up of exactly similar parts facing each other or around an axis.
    "this series has a line of symmetry through its center"
    synonyms: regularity, evenness, uniformity, consistency, conformity, correspondence, equality; More
    correct or pleasing proportion of the parts of a thing.
    "an overall symmetry making the poem pleasant to the ear"
    synonyms: regularity, evenness, uniformity, consistency, conformity, correspondence, equality; More
    similarity or exact correspondence between different things.
    plural noun: symmetries
    "a lack of symmetry between men and women"

    Di-sect the word any way you may choose. I'm just explaining to the layman that this stuff is not as difficult as been claimed.
    Now on the other hand maybe some of the best don't know HOW to do it. That's a different story.....

    In case DW forgot to mention, I never fixed a pair of shoes in my life!
     
  6. Nick V.

    Nick V. Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Yup.....
     
  7. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Last edited: Apr 15, 2017
  8. Nick V.

    Nick V. Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Excellent, excellent question PB. During my 40 some odd years of experience that sort of issue shows up every now and then. I'll exempt hand welted maybe DW's method. And I think you mentioned somewhere that you send your shoes back to, I think you said St. Crispins? They replaced the linings re-crafted and did all sorts of other things at a rediculas price. I disputed that and you proved me wrong. I.m still impressed with that and couldn't, would I want to touch them with a kid glove.

    My response to your question is simply this. If anybody has proof -or- can show clear and valid evidence of a shoe, let's say upper being "RE-STRETCHED" over the last I would like to see it with
    my own eyes.
    I'll pay my own air-fare and hotel to witness that for myself.

    Think of it.... Hand welted:
    Again maybe DW doe's it this way. Maybe he does not want to bother with the stuff anymore. No disrespect intended. The only way (aside from adding inserts) to REALLY make the shoe tighter would be to separate the upper from the holdfast (while the shoe is in the last). Keep the insole in place, pull the upper over the bottom of the last, re-stitch the upper and liner to now what has become a broken-in upper. Create new holes. Then trim off the excess leather which we think are remnants of an over stretched upper. Finally close the shoe.

    Fine, but, I don't see that happening.....

    GYW:

    As most of us agree, it is cost prohibitive to replace the insole bc of the way the shoe is constructed. So, with the insole in
    place, using a last and, in most cases a jack at least how can the size possibly change? I'm talking about competent craftsmen, not a hack.

    To give my answer of PB's question is this:

    When your shoes are in need of re-crafting, obviously the soles have worn out and the shoes became flimsy as a result. In some cases the foot-beds cracked as well making them even more flimsy.
    So, when you replace ONLY those two components of course it will make the shoe more rigid. It just needs to be broken in again. Add to that, common sense will tell you that a worn out flimsy sole has a very limited memory and little , if no support left. Adding a new foot-bed and out-sole will bring those properties back. Last, replacing those components tends to (naturally) "pull the upper down" making it feel like the size changed. If the job was done right, the shoes just need to be broken in again, and that shouldn't take long at all.

    Please remind DW that I never fixed a pair of shoes in my life!
     
    1 person likes this.
  9. Nick V.

    Nick V. Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Are you clearly, I mean CLEARLY admitting that you don't have the ability to follow the obvious pattern?
    Anybody that has confidence in their abilities wouldn't even think about it. The only question would be do I want to do this before lunch -or-after.

    I never fixed a pair of shoes in my life (just in cast you may have forgotten).
     
  10. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    And that's precisely why I object to your posturing--

    You. Don't. Even. Know. If. That. Is. True.

    You. Cannot. Know. If. It. Is. True.

    Because. You. Do. Not. Do. It. Cannot. Do. It.

    You. Don't. Know. What. You. Are. Talking. About.

    Because. You. Have. Never. Done. It.

    And that means that your explanations, esp. to laymen, are misleading. All your explanations are based upon a fundamental falsehood--an understanding, a comprehension that you have not earned and do not have.

    What is more, because you don't do it, you don't have the right to explain to anyone. It is an arrogant presumption which suggest that even though you don't know what you're talking about, you know better than all those poor benighted, simple, laymen. Better even than people who have dedicated their lives to developing and mastering skills you haven't even tried.

    Worse, by making statements that are misleading and predicated on falsehoods and supposition rather than experience, you disrespect and discredit the Traditions, the Trade. and shoemakers everywhere. People who are, like it or not, the Keepers of the knowledge. The Guardians of a precious Heritage.

    You even disrespect your own business and your employees simply because you cannot know how hard or easy it is to do any of this without doing it...yet you presume to speak for those who actually have the objective experience and earned insights.

    edited for punctuation and clarity
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2017
  11. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    I haven't forgotten. I knew that years ago. I could tell by the things you said...and didn't say. I could tell because much of it had no basis in objective reality...as experienced by someone actually doing the work.

    That said, maybe you should make that your signature--

    "I've never repaired a shoe in my life but I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night and that makes me an expert.--Nick V."
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2017
  12. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    PS... as for me, I've never stayed at a Holiday Inn but I've personally repaired lots and lots of shoes in my life and career...maybe thousands.

    And I've made shoes and boots for almost 50 years.
     
  13. matlee89

    matlee89 Member

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    Guys, this is getting tiresome and has moved way past the point of being educational for the rest of us.
     
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  14. duncanbootmaker

    duncanbootmaker Well-Known Member

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    I agree [​IMG]
     
  15. bengal-stripe

    bengal-stripe Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    You are right, so just the promised pictures without comment. They are probably quite close to the picture @MoneyWellSpent has posted.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Yes, they are anecdotal, but so are all the pictures posted in this thread.
     
  16. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Would that were true.

    So what is your purpose in posting these? No one here ever said that GYW shoes would explode or even that a shoe worn easily and never subjected to the elements could not remain more or less intact.

    It has been..right from the beginning...those who doubted (did not want to hear) that gemming could and does fail, often with relatively disastrous consequences, that have driven these discussions...with all the attending belligerence and angst.

    It is those people who have called into question the very proposition that HW is the best way of making a shoe...against all objective evidence. Challenging or dismissing some of the best shoemakers in the world in order to further these confrontations. It is those people who have doubted the evidence.

    It is those people who have repeatedly dismissed all the photographs and the explanations...yet expect their own to be regaled.

    Why do you post these photos...affirming, again, what we all already know and what we all already accept, if not to further this controversy and promote confrontation?

    Why is it not trolling?

    edited for punctuation and clarity
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2017
  17. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    All well and good. I have agreed with that proposition almost from the beginning.

    But I will say this: While my intended purpose here is to educate, the purpose of this forum is not...nor is it to entertain.

    This is a discussion forum. It's purpose is to allow people to discuss issues. Sometimes issues they don't agree on.

    If people need a "safe space," this is the wrong place.

    Particularly in a thread that I started and feel some attachment / responsibility towards, I'll respond to questions, esp. those directed at me, and follow the discussion where they lead.

    Sorry to disappoint...
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2017
  18. Nick V.

    Nick V. Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Thanks for the pics Stripe. But something strikes me as weird.
    The pic shows a shoe with the sole removed the cork and under-side of the welt clearly and easily exposed. However the flush mounted toe plates still attached and in tack?
    How is that? Did somebody intentionally grind down the tips of the sole to the welt before attaching the toe plates? Then attached the toe plates directly to the welt and insole?
    I hope not....It may be off-point, but maybe you can clear that up.....
     
  19. deez shoes

    deez shoes Well-Known Member

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    Damn, real talk on that manager subject you mentioned on this post. I'm in the management field and I see this mistake made several times over in different industries. [​IMG]
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Thank you.

    And thank you for reading through that post. I doubt that one of five people in this thread have actually done that. Most importantly, thank you for making the effort and taking the time to understand what was being said.
     

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