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shoe construction...behind the veil

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by DWFII, Jul 24, 2010.

  1. Whirling

    Whirling Senior member

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    You say this and yet you are "web friends" with Florsheim? You illustrate your services, which, by the way, I have heard are excellent, with some fairly unattractive footwear.

    Do you really not know anybody who would wear DW's shoes? I find that hard to believe. How about we take a look at all of the footwear you have personally worn in the past three days, so we can see what you think are wearable shoes?

    If DW is completely honest, we can take his word that he delivers bespoke HW shoes for $1,800. If he is not completely honest, he could easily fake a contract showing any damn price he would like. A copy of a contract would prove nothing. We take him at his word, or we don't. We aren't sending a forensic accountant to audit his books.

    DW is clearly not full of shit. Plenty of well-respected people have personally attested to the quality of the work of his own hands. Short of his finding somebody else to do the work for him on the sly, which would seem difficult at his prices, I don't see how he can fake his knowledge when the product of it is visible.
     
  2. Nick V.

    Nick V. Senior member Dubiously Honored

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  3. Nick V.

    Nick V. Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Are you ready for second grade?
     
  4. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    The Highlands of Central Oregon
    

    Is that it, you suppose? He thinks I would put a "standard" price on a contract? I can tell him, you, everyone that I do not. Those lines are left blank intentionally. If for no other reason than that I don't have to print up a new contract every time I change my prices. Which I haven't in over two(?) years.

    But it's also just the way I operate...I don't quote price on my web page either. I make people call me so that they can talk to me and I can talk to them. If they won't do that...can't be bothered...I don't want their business.

    Almost as galling as being called a liar every time Nick or chogall gets hoisted up by their own petard, is the petulance that compels him to call emptym a liar. MTM told him what my prices were. Yet he's still carping on it. FWIW, MTM signed that same contract (both times).

    It's posturing, that's all.

    I'm not posting my contract because 1) I don't do what he tells me to do even if he's lying on the floor kicking his heels and pulling his hair. If nothing else I enjoy his antics---it's the only time he's coherent and real.

    And 2) it's nobody's business but my own. (who said that? here in this thread, I mean?)

    I thank you for that but pay him no mind. He's wrong about that as well as all the other stuff--I'm real regular. :lol:
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2016
  5. Whirling

    Whirling Senior member

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    Try to stay on topic...generic insults will only weaken any argument you're trying to make. You will note my posting was limited to talking about footwear and the photos of footwear people have chosen to share.
     
  6. Nick V.

    Nick V. Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Try to stay on topic...generic insults will only weaken any argument you're trying to make.  You will note my posting was limited to talking about footwear and the photos of footwear people have chosen to share.
    [/quot

    Agreed......
    A contract would prove everything.
    None the less? BS Time to move on.
     
  7. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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    His ability to make shoes has nothing to do with his personality.
     
  8. Nick V.

    Nick V. Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    DW totality lied about me. As he has in the past. To me that's a disgrace.
    A contract would prove everything. It' simple......
     
  9. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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    I am not calling M a liar. So don't put words in my mouth.

    I am merely stating the fact that some of those upstart US 'bespoke' makers don't have the skill, training, or experiences compare to the EU/UK/JP or even Southeast Asia counterparts.
     
  10. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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    Fact is, you disrespect my personal experience because I am not a shoemaker. You disrespect NickV's professional experience because his not a shoemaker.

    But now you are saying DWW knows something about shoemaking disregarding the fact that his not a shoemaker.

    Your stance changed because of a PR blog post.
     
  11. Whirling

    Whirling Senior member

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    Although I understand the point you are making. I actually believe a man needs a certain kind of personality to reach the highest levels of his craft. If DW were the kind of man to cut corners, lie to others, and lie to himself, I just don't think he could make the footwear he makes. When I made things for a living, I was called pig-headed for spending too long on "quality," because there was more money to be made by settling for "good enough." If I were willing to play fast and loose with the facts, I just wouldn't have been the kind of guy to "waste" his time making things to the very best of my ability.

    Is it possible that I'm totally wrong about DW? I guess so, but I feel I have a sense for these things. Now, he might write things out of anger here, on occasion, that don't do him as much credit as they could, but we all have our weaknesses.
     
  12. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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    1. Rough side out.
    2. Yes.
    3. My leather shoes never shrank length wise. But leather sole for outdoors is an extremely bad choice; it doesn't keep your shoes dry. Hand welted (or gyw) construction is really bad in keeping feet dry as well. But if you are silly enough to believe in them, beware of trench foot.

    4. did you ask for half or full sole?
     
  13. Whirling

    Whirling Senior member

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    Certainly, material science has produced some incredible results. That said, it has, to date, not surpassed all natural materials. Otherwise, why do we see so much wood in the best furniture? Why do we see so much wool in the best suits? And, for those money-no-object bespoke footwear that comes out of Paris, London, or Tokyo for over $10,000 per pair, why are so many of them made out of leather?
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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    Nope. Being able to reach the pinnacle of any trade has nothing to do with personality.

    You are born with it. 10000 hours rule or tons of practice and experience is only a prerequisite of being good in something. But they won't turn average joe Michael Jordan, Einstein, or Picasso.
     
  15. Nick V.

    Nick V. Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I appreciate your thought's. Thank you.
    However.......A custom made bespoke HWed here in northern u.s.?
    I don't care how much you jump up and down.
    Won't happen......
     
  16. Whirling

    Whirling Senior member

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    Thank you for your answers! Very helpful.

    May I ask why rough out? So pure cement/glue construction is best for keeping the water out? A lot of the rugged boots involve some type of stitched construction with plenty of cement, as far as I can tell. One example would be a boot with a leather midsole and a Vibram Christy sole cemented/glued to the bottom of that...

    I simply asked for them to be "resoled," and assumed that would mean a full, new sole. Perhaps that was a bad assumption on my part.
     
  17. bdavro23

    bdavro23 Senior member

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    Nick,

    I want to personally thank you for posting this message. While I was always a bit dubious about you, I was prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt. Thankfully, you have decided to show all of us what a terrible person you actually are and I can cross you and your company off my list permanently.

    There is something to be said for being a decent person and showing respect to others even when you disagree with them.
     
  18. Whirling

    Whirling Senior member

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    I am no expert on any of this. The only solid quote, in the U.S. Northeast, that I have personally been given was $5,000.

    I don't think anybody is denying that there are some relatively unskilled people in the US offering bespoke HW footwear for low prices. I don't think anybody is arguing that one should NOT be very cautious when working with somebody who quotes low prices, but isn't open about their experience level and willing to show examples of their finished work.

    I think where some of the disconnect in this thread is that some first-rate bespoke cordwainers in the US may be charging such low amounts for their work that they make less per hour than they would as baristas at Starbucks, let alone not charging amounts that would support a retail operation in a major city, as opposed to a workshop in a rural area.

    From a reasonable businessman's perspective, DW might be charging impossible prices, but that doesn't mean he isn't doing it.

    edited for missing "NOT"
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2016
  19. emptym

    emptym Senior member Moderator

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    There were several linked to in posts above by myself and Testudo_Aubreii. (Whenever the text is blue, that means you can click the text and it will take you to a new website.)

    Here they are again, with a few more as well, with locations from all over the US:

    Craigcorvin.com

    Romangoshoes.com

    Donville.com

    Sutorial.com (Here's a pic and here's a video of their handwelting. The "Custom" part of their website shows a very nice brogued oxford.) Made in Flint, Michigan.

    Esquivelshoes.com

    Exitshoes.com

    Cordshoes.com (The website is RTW handwelted for $500, but this article mentions custom)

    Craryshoes.com

    Dan Freeman's Leatherworks

    www.facebook.com/HerreraBootmaker/

    Beneduci.com (Most of their shoes are a modified GY welt, iirc. They can do hand welted but starts at just over $1,800)


    The following do bespoke shoes, and I've emailed to ask if handwelting is an option:

    Dehner.com (They travel to Italy and the UK.)

    Kroopboots.com

    Vogelboots.com

    There was a place in Elko, Nevada that made handwelted boots (cowboy and laceup ropers), but I can't find the website now.



    As shoefan wrote above though, I also think DW is the only one with skills comparable to an English firm. And DW himself has said that his finishing isn't quite as good as others like Nicholas Templeman
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2016
    1 person likes this.
  20. Whirling

    Whirling Senior member

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    Even when we feel other people have crossed the line, I think we need to avoid ad hominem attacks, such as calling somebody a "terrible person." We need to keep returning to talking about footwear, however broadly one wishes to construe that topic. That's what I find interesting.

    Can we try to debate as gentlemen (and gentlewomen if there are any participating in this thread)? A good debate can be very heated, but it leaves out insults.
     

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