shoe construction...behind the veil

[DWFII]

BTW and FWIW, (and I hesitate to point this out because someone somewhere is sure to be offended--apologies to Mr. Kuwana)...but at first blush, the "repaired" outsoles on the Kuwana shoes are not the same outsoles as "delivered."

Either that or Mr. Kuwana supinates to an alarming degree.

Just sayin'

 

[bengal-stripe]



So what?! A similar comment could be made about brass nails. Both Marquess and Koki Suzuki apparently prefer brass nails to metal toe plates. I think it's just a difference in perspective.

I don't know about Suzuki, but here are my "Marquess" shoes with Triumph plates:



I'm not sure why you believe three (or even five) screws would cause mortal damage to the welt seam, but a dozen or more nails would not. The screws are very small, either Nr. 1 or 2 (1.5 or 2 mm). I haven't got any pins (nails) to measure, but I would guess the diameter is about 1.5 mm. The thread for the welt stitching is twisted from individual strands, so the point of any nail or screw is likely to go between the individual stands, at worst cutting cutting one of the strands. but not the thread in it's entirety. I presume screws even have an advantage to nails as the twisting motion of setting the screw helps to negotiate their way between the individual stands (unlike the straight-down motion of a hammer blow). It's the same principle as the use of a (dressmaking) pin in woven fabrics: the pin slips through the holes in the weave and does not cut the individual fibres, leaving permanent damage.

Neither you nor I can show proof of whether or not damage occurs: I am not willing to take any of my shoes apart and you have presumably never have seen or held a shoe with toe plate, let alone taken one apart.

This endless "fiddling" with the shoe may make it feel more personal to the customer...esp. if they are willing to own up to the end result, both good and bad. But from my point of view it's mostly unneeded--an answer to a question that not only didn't need to be asked but which already had an answer derived from ten thousand of years of evolution.

You might not have seen previously shoes with metal toe plates, but it is hardly a new invention: the Northampton museum has samples from before WWI. I have no idea whether they are an invention of the late 19th century or have a far longer history. But even by your definition of "tradition", something passed down through at least four generations, ought to count as "tradition".

Call it if you want a "bad or misguided tradition", but a tradition it is.

 

[DWFII]



I'm not sure why you believe three (or even five) screws would cause mortal damage to the welt seam, but a dozen or more nails would not. The screws are very small, either Nr. 1 or 2 (1.5 or 2 mm). I haven't got any pins (nails) to measure, but I would guess the diameter is about 1.5 mm. The thread for the welt stitching is twisted from individual strands, so the point of any nail or screw is likely to go between the individual stands, at worst cutting cutting one of the strands. but not the thread in it's entirety. I presume screws even have an advantage to nails as the twisting motion of setting the screw helps to negotiate their way between the individual stands (unlike the straight-down motion of a hammer blow). It's the same principle as the use of a (dressmaking) pin in woven fabrics: the pin slips through the holes in the weave and does not cut the individual fibres, leaving permanent damage.

First, I know and understand...intimately--in my hands and from first person experience...how an inseaming thread is made. I have made innumerable inseaming threads, along with the wax, from scratch. I know how they are used and held together and what happens to them when they are twisted with a good hand wax.

[And, for the record, I would welcome anyone who shared that understanding and experience. In the absence of such a one, however, and for the purposes of this discussion, I'll have to do until someone more to your liking or with fewer unpalatable truths comes along.]

Second...you've got it just backward, as someone without experience might be expected to. The screw is a spiral blade. When it anchors on the toe plate, it pulls leather and thread towards itself, increasing the leverage and the cutting action of that blade.

The nails are far more like the dressmakers pins in their ability to slip past twists of the thread without doing damage than the screws will ever be.

Neither you nor I can show proof of whether or not damage occurs: I am not willing to take any of my shoes apart and you have presumably never have seen or held a shoe with toe plate, let alone taken one apart.

Wrong again, but typically presumptuous. And typical of people without direct experience. You presume that since you don't have experience or a deeper, more personal understanding, all knowledge must therefore end with yours. What's the old saying? "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." I would only add that in the case of people without direct experience, a little presumption can last a lifetime.

I have taken apart shoes with toe plates, have seen holes drilled into the leather of the insole. I have mounted toe plates. I just don't do it anymore...mostly because of what I have seen with regard to the results.

edited for punctuation and clarity

 

[Nick V.]

No question a poor fitted shoe can result in premature wear of the bottoms. In this case we are discussing the toe area specifically. Every day I see shoes from very particular customers that are fitted properly. Some even custom Lobbs, Grensons no matter how well they fit the toe wears prematurely. It's a question of their gait and nothing to do with the fit. No matter how well a shoe fits, for some it's the gait and the fit won't change that.

One can argue why undercoat a car? For some that's their preference.
No right -or- wrong to it......

 

[chogall]

So what?! A similar comment could be made about brass nails. Both Marquess and Koki Suzuki apparently prefer brass nails to metal toe plates. I think it's just a difference in perspective.

I readily admit that metal toe plates prevent wear. I've said as much clearly and unequivocally many times. Redacting or ignoring those remarks won't change them. But a full metal bottom will prevent the outsole from wearing out too. Why stop at the toe?

I've also said that I believe that if the toe wears down excessively, it is often due to a poor fit or the idiosyncrasies of gait. Or perhaps even too little toe spring. It is not a universal problem, IMO. I've never worn my own toes down excessively and never had a shoe or boot customer request them after the fact.

I have said it before and I will say it again, toe spring has little to do with toe tip wear, for toe spring is there for the weight transfer from ball to toe, but toe tip wear come *AFTER* that weight transfer and bears a fraction of whole body weight.

It is the toe tip edge that gets compressed, deformed, and worn. Not the toe tip as a whole.

Two completely different things.

 

[chogall]

First, I know and understand...intimately--in my hands and from first person experience...how an inseaming thread is made. I have made innumerable inseaming threads, along with the wax, from scratch. I know how they are used and held together and what happens to them when they are twisted with a good hand wax.

[And, for the record, I would welcome anyone who shared that understanding and experience. In the absence of such a one, however, and for the purposes of this discussion, I'll have to do until someone more to your liking or with fewer unpalatable truths comes along.]

Second...you've got it just backward, as someone without experience might be expected to. The screw is a spiral blade. When it anchors on the toe plate, it pulls leather and thread towards itself, increasing the leverage and the cutting action of that blade.

The nails are far more like the dressmakers pins in their ability to slip past twists of the thread without doing damage than the screws will ever be.
Wrong again, but typically presumptuous. And typical of people without direct experience. You presume that since you don't have experience or a deeper, more personal understanding, all knowledge must therefore end with yours. What's the old saying? "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

I have taken apart shoes with toe plates, have seen holes drilled into the leather of the insole. I have mounted toe plates. I just don't do it anymore...mostly because of what I have seen with regard to the results.

edited for punctuation and clarity

The noisy kind of toe plate or the not noisy kind of flushed metal toe plates?

 

[DWFII]



I have said it before and I will say it again, toe spring has little to do with toe tip wear, for toe spring is there for the weight transfer from ball to toe, but toe tip wear come *AFTER* that weight transfer and bears a fraction of whole body weight.

It is the toe tip edge that gets compressed, deformed, and worn.  Not the toe tip as a whole.

Two completely different things.

Let me ask you something...I've asked it before but I need to establish for my own satisfaction once and for all...are you a shoemaker? Have you ever studied the foot or foot gait? Extensively...over a number of years...or just since you've started posting?

It doesn't make any difference how many times you've said it...despite current perceptions in the body politic...repetition does not make truth.

I am not going to bother to explain to you why toe spring can have an effect on toe wear...I've explained in the past...simply because I suspect you're not really interested.

 

[bengal-stripe]



The noisy kind of toe plate.......

Now that’s a bit of a whopper (and presumably will make a hell of a noise) :

http://www.crockettandjones.com/news/index/the-turner-twins--question-mt-elbrus

I do believe, that those screws (probably 3.5 mm) will cause damage, particular as they seem to sit directly on top of the out-seam.
But, torn thread or not, as long as the screws are in place, they will hold it all together.

There will never be the need to replace the ironmongery, even less so, the actual soles.

 

[chogall]

Let me ask you something...I've asked it before but I need to establish for my own satisfaction once and for all...are you a shoemaker? Have you ever studied the foot or foot gait? Extensively...over a number of years...or just since you've started posting?

It doesn't make any difference how many times you've said it...despite current perceptions in the body politic...repetition does not make truth.

I am not going to bother to explain to you why toe spring can have an effect on toe wear...I've explained in the past...simply because I suspect you're not really interested.

No I am not a shoemaker. Are you a licensed podiatrist or licensed orthitics/pedorthitics maker? Are you basing your arguments on shoemaking experiences, of which "repetition does not make truth"?

You are not reading what I said. I was *not* talking about toe wear, but toe tip wear, which metal or rubber toe plates prevents. Two different things.

Running shoes have curved/curled toe tips for a good reason. Here's a picture to help you understand the difference between toe area and toe tips.

 

[chogall]

Now that’s a bit of a whopper (and presumably will make a hell of a noise) :


http://www.crockettandjones.com/news/index/the-turner-twins--question-mt-elbrus

I do believe, that those screws (probably 3.5 mm) will cause damage, particular as they seem to sit directly on top of the out-seam.
But, torn thread or not, as long as the screws are in place, they will hold it all together.

There will never be the need to replace the ironmongery, even less so, the actual soles.

Toe plates? Cleats? Or hardwood floor destroyers?

 

[DWFII]

I have never claimed to be a podiatrist. And I seldom speculate or opine in those aspects of foot health or functioning that has never borne upon my work --that I don't have direct experience with, IOW.

That said, I have studied the foot and its relationship to shoes for over forty years.

Such first hand, accumulated, knowledge is important to what I do and who I am. You can afford to speculate and fantasize, and to make disparaging and snarky comments because even if you're wrong, you don't have to be responsible. You can't be held accountable.

I cannot be so indifferent.

Bottom line is that you could not be more wrong without deliberately taking refuge in ignorance. You simply do not know what you're talking about. Not even a clue.

I wish I could laugh derisively in text. The weight of the body cannot physically bear on the ends of those boots. They are moot and beside-the-point...as is your posting of the photo. What's more, they are artificially stiffened but the toe of the foot no more affects or controls them than if they were tied to the knee...as in historically earlier iterations.

And beyond that, posting that photo only underscores your lack of understanding of toe spring--toe spring is built into the shape of the last and locked into the functionality and shape of the shoe by the toe stiffener and the proximity of the toe of the foot. No matter what you want to believe or foist off on this discussion, that is not toe spring in that photo.

As long as the toe of the foot is within a toe stiffener and close enough to the end of the shoe to push off of, toe spring can make a difference. Strap a plank to the bottom of your foot and walk about a bit. Examine the forward edge for wear. Now look at real wooden shoes--they are all, without exception (that I know of) deliberately and strongly shaped to impart huge toe spring. That shape is created to ameliorate the wear on the end of the shoe. Beyond that, any competent shoe repair will, when mounting a thick crepe outsole, deliberately grind away the toe (and sometimes the heel) of the outsole thinner to imitate or accentuate toe spring. Again this prevents excessive wear in a soft material.

Does this take too much thinking, too much basic analysis to understand?

edited for punctuation and clarity

 

[VRaivio]

Nick V.,

any change for an Instagram account for your business? You must handle hordes of interesting pairs each year and, you know, sharing is caring and whatnot.

 

[Nick V.]



Nick V.,

any change for an Instagram account for your business? You must handle hordes of interesting pairs each year and, you know, sharing is caring and whatnot.

Thank you Sir--

I already have a full plate and also like to spend time with my family (3 kids).
It's rare that I get the time to fish the trout streams any more and, there are several good ones within a few miles of my home!!!!

 

[DWFII]



I do believe, that those screws (probably 3.5 mm) will cause damage, particular as they seem to sit directly on top of the out-seam.

But you don't believe that screws directly over and into the inseam will cause damage?

But, torn thread or not, as long as the screws are in place, they will hold it all together.

True enough. But once they are removed...esp. screws in the inseam...what do you think the impact on the inseam will be going forward. Do those holes or that damage strengthen the shoe? Do they make it easier for a repairman (or even the maker) to retain or recapture the original structural integrity of the shoe? What does it mean to the end user that his shoes may have damage that doesn't come from ordinary wear and tear?

I guess if we don't think about it too much or too deeply its doesn't make any difference at all.

 

[chogall]

I have never claimed to be a podiatrist. And I seldom speculate or opine in those aspects of foot health or functioning that has never borne upon my work --that I don't have direct experience with, IOW.

That said, I have studied the foot and its relationship to shoes for over forty years.

Such first hand, accumulated, knowledge is important to what I do and who I am. You can afford to speculate and fantasize, and to make disparaging and snarky comments because even if you're wrong, you don't have to be responsible. You can't be held accountable.

I cannot be so indifferent.

Bottom line is that you could not be more wrong without deliberately taking refuge in ignorance. You simply do not know what you're talking about. Not even a clue.

I wish I could laugh derisively in text. The weight of the body cannot physically bear on the ends of those boots. They are moot and beside-the-point...as is your posting of the photo. What's more, they are artificially stiffened but the toe of the foot no more affects or controls them than if they were tied to the knee...as in historically earlier iterations.

And beyond that, posting that photo only underscores your lack of understanding of toe spring--toe spring is built into the shape of the last and locked into the functionality and shape of the shoe by the toe stiffener and the proximity of the toe of the foot. No matter what you want to believe or foist off on this discussion, that is not toe spring in that photo.

As long as the toe of the foot is within a toe stiffener and close enough to the end of the shoe to push off of, toe spring can make a difference. Strap a plank to the bottom of your foot and walk about a bit. Examine the forward edge for wear. Now look at real wooden shoes--they are all, without exception (that I know of) deliberately and strongly shaped to impart huge toe spring. That shape is created to ameliorate the wear on the end of the shoe. Beyond that, any competent shoe repair will, when mounting a thick crepe outsole, deliberately grind away the toe (and sometimes the heel) of the outsole thinner to imitate or accentuate toe spring. Again this prevents excessive wear in a soft material.

Does this take too much thinking, too much basic analysis to understand?

edited for punctuation and clarity

"You don't know what you are talking about" is the perfect conclusion when you have neither the expertise on foot physiology/pathology nor the data points to prove your point on the issues of flushed metal toe plates. You are a shoemaker, not a foot doctor or an orthotics maker.

You can keep hawking and demonizing your fantasized ills of flushed metal toe plates, based on your decades if not centuries of experience in shoemaking. But as you've stated yourself, "repetition does not make truth."