shoe construction...behind the veil

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by DWFII, Jul 24, 2010.

  1. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    It's Belgian. I get it through Milton-Sokol here in the US, IIRC.

    Masure's Homepage
     
  2. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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  3. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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    Yes, no contradiction at all. That type of expressions are logically sound statements that states *nothing* on the surface but is (mis)leading implicitly.

    For example, a Donald Trump-esq statement such as: Some immigrants that came to the States are rapists, while some are not. The statement is logically sound, hard to prove wrong since its so ambiguous, but actually have implicit negative connotations.

    And the same could be said regarding, some gemmings fail, some gemmings don't. Or some flushed metal toe taps are noisy, some are not. Or some hand craftsman are retards, some are not. All these are logically sound, but implies that gemming fail, metal toe taps are noisy, etc. Misleading for sure.
     
  4. MoneyWellSpent

    MoneyWellSpent Senior member

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  5. Nick V.

    Nick V. Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Thank you.
    I'll start by saying they're are a lot of capable shoe repair people out there. If you have one in you're area, use them. By the same token there are a lot of butchers. They only hurt the shoe repair industry and I resent them.
    As I volunteered in the past (and was constantly berated for) No, I never fixed a pair of shoes in my life. But, I know what I'm doing and know what's going on. After successfully striving over 40 years only logic supports that fact.

    Having said that, I clearly noticed in the past few years that Men have become more style conscious. That includes shoes and the detail in them. Every day we get orders on changing out welts, antiquing edges, converting soles from one material to another, on and on....I have had makers ask me when I spot a trend to let them know.

    Thank you for you're kind comments. We deal with a lot of styleforum.com members I'm certain that most (if not all) will tell you that when there are specific details that are important to them that I am always available. If not in person certainly via e-mail. In fact, I insist on being involved if there any grey area issues.

    I'm not sure that I understand your're question about "minor problems". So, I'll respond in a basic manor from my prospective.

    Very often when we take a shoe apart we find that stitches need to be replaced -or- tightened so on and so on. A credible craftsman (not necessarily us) will do that stuff without disturbing the customer. For the most part the customer does not want to hear it and, it's mutual we don't want to explain it. It just gets fixed.

    I have been written up in several mags and appeared on live radio interviews (that stuff is fun) many, many times. My policy is to ask "do you want DIY answers or stuff that has to be done by a professional"? The common answer is both. So, if you are happy with the way your sole guards came out, just keep doing it....
    In fact, I have done electrical wiring for my home sound system that I thought resulted in better sound than a pro could produce. So be it.......

    Regarding Bakers, have you tried JR to compare?

    Best,

    Nick
     
  6. emptym

    emptym Moderator Moderator

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    Ah, thanks. Sorry for the mistake. I thought the black shell boots were Baker.
    Now this is an interesting point. Glad you've conceded they aren't contradictory. So now we can focus on the fact that the debate isn't one of extremes, of all or nothing, but of specifying probabilites. At that point, my competency here is exhausted. I have no idea how often gemming fails or toe taps make noise.

    Thanks Nick. I have a shop that's pretty good. Really nice guys. But I don't think they or anyone else in SF operate at quite the standards of your shop. I may have a pair of heels put on here and then send them out for the full resole.

    Haven't tried JR, or Bakers it seems!
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2015
  7. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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    Now here's a video for those who likes both shoemaking and woodworking (@Nick V. , @DWFII ).

    A shoe cabinet made by John Lobb/Hermes, with shots of pattern making, clicking, making, finishing, and cabinet making. Wish I could find the plan for this...

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2015
  8. fairlynerdy

    fairlynerdy Senior member

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    Question about footbed formation, which has been an interesting conversation. From the information folks have posted, it sounds like a quality insole measures 5-6 mm thick. Assuming 50% compression, that's a 2.5-3 mm deep footbed. That doesn't seem like much to me, though I truly have no basis for that statement. Looking at some of Rider's teardowns, it looks like the outsoles have also compressed noticeably. My observation is that insole compression seems like only part of the footbed creation story, that you also need a leather outsole (or midsole I suppose) and that you need the insole to warp to fit the compression of the outsole.

    Is that right? I'm also interested in understanding why cork displacement has been described as a bad thing. It would seem that if you need to create space for the insole to warp into, you'd need the cork to displace. Perhaps it's just that cork displacement is not as good as leather compression. Thanks in advance to the experts here for any thoughts.
     
  9. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    A lot of this comes down to a misunderstanding of the properties and characteristics of the materials involved and the processes that take place. If you take a thin piece of leather and stretch or deform it, it will not create a footbed.

    A footbed is ideally like an orthotic--custom made for your individual foot. A thin deformed piece of leather, such as a sockliner or even a thin insole back by cork, cannot support the foot...around the toes, under the metatarsal arch, etc....anymore than a sock can.

    The compression that takes place in a good quality leather insole of sufficient substance is not the same thing as the ephemeral shaping that takes place...even in a sockliner...backed by a substrate that is fugitive. Such topography is formed more by stretching than compression and will flatten out or shift almost instantaneously once that substate is removed.

    If an actual footbed is being formed, in those areas where the leather is not compressed, it is raised, and where it is raised it is solid underneath. It is not just a hollow echoing of the contours of the foot. A footbed supports the foot...in detail, just as an orthotic does.

    The iconic footbed is one that brings a good quality insole into contact with a good quality outsole with little or no cushioning. In such circumstances, there is no displacement to deter compression and as a result there is no stretching or deformation of the insole that is not supported from one surface of the insole to the other.

    Any displacement of that fundamental support--that foundation--such as occurs with cork, means that the foot bed cannot form properly.

    Cork is touted and used because it is supposedly a cushioning material and because it is lightweight. It is both...as long as it lasts. If it displaces out from under the first and fifth metatarsal heads, for instance (or more likely the whole ball of the foot), there is no cushioning. And the thin insoles (that are justified in part because of that thick layer of cork) fall into the "vacuum"...the space...that was previously occupied by the cork. The leather is not compressing so much as deforming. But more importantly as the cork displaces, the areas with no pressure on them...such as the metatarsal arch are left with no support. Simply because the cork is gone and the leather insole too thin to create the upraised topography needed for support.

    What's more, cork does not allow the leather of the insole to compress and form a footbed, simply because of its vaunted "cushioning" ability--the cork itself compresses but it also pushes back, IOW. And as shoefan pointed out it never stops pushing back.

    And in point of fact, if the cork wasn't fugitive what footbed that could potentially form, doesn't...simply because the leather cannot stay compressed. So it's a conumdrum...a contradiction in terms.

    It's a complicated process which does not yield readily to uninformed or inexperienced speculation.

    edited for punctuation and clarity
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2015
  10. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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    Your feet can easily feel a 1mm^2 pebble/sand inside your shoes. So 2.5-3mm though doesn't appear to be a big numerical value, it is quite significant for your feet.

    As for cork, on one hand it retain shape well, thus foot bed doesn't form, which in term means no support. On the other hand, cork retain shape well, bounces back from resistance so it has great support. Further, cork will get displaced after worn or the bonding adhesive broke from constant pressure, which means foot bed will be formed, which in term means good support. But unfortunately, cork is occlusive and the adhesives used to bind them might or might not be occlusive, making your filler layer occlusive, which might be either great for shoe breathability or bad for wicking water into your insole.

    If the above is too conflicting for you, here are the hard facts:

    1) Many custom Orthotics are made with EVA or cork. We don't seem to have a Orthotics/Pedothotics/podiatrist/licensed professional on this forum to explain the how and the why.

    2) At resole, cork fillers will *hopefully* be removed and replaced with new cork fillers but insole retained. Therefore your foot bed on the insole will remain with new layer of cork fillers.

    3) Shoe insoles with cork fillers *does* form foot beds regardless if its Goodyear, hand welted, or Norwegian sewn.

    4) Good quality GY insoles have as thick an insole at 4-5mm thick compare to hand welted insoles also at 4-5mm thick. As I've listed above, JM Weston uses ~5mm thick insoles (their own literature), G&G, EG, uses ~4mm thick insoles (Men's Ex).
     
  11. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I know this is late, but I have always gotten the metal toe plates because I assumed that they would prevent further damage to the welt when the front gets worn. DW, are you saying the screws have the potential to cause even worse damage if they are penetrating the inseam?

    FWIW, I stopped getting heel taps a long time ago because I found that by the time the heel was noticeably worn down they needed a full resole anyway so I just left them out.
     
  12. jerrybrowne

    jerrybrowne Senior member

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    For what it's worth I switched from metal toeplates to what DW described- rubber inserts at the toe. Works really well, but I have them installed by the maker.
     
  13. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I think I am just going to wear all metal shoes like DW also suggested.
     
  14. jerrybrowne

    jerrybrowne Senior member

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    :slayer: Sounds like a good workout.
     
  15. clee1982

    clee1982 Senior member

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    My metal tap doesn't really make noise, that was my worry in the beginning as well.
     

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