shoe construction...behind the veil

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by DWFII, Jul 24, 2010.

  1. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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    Thank you for demonstrate you misunderstanding of the construction of the shoes, where the screws is NOT going to hit the inseam when properly mounted.

    And, also, fillers are deposited to be thicker than the insteam for gemmed shoes. For hand welted shoes, I cannot say for certain because not all shoemakers make shoe the same way.

    Everything can potentially go wrong but doesnt mean it will.
     
  2. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    You don't know what you're talking about.

    Where did I see that icon that says "don't feed the troll"?

    [​IMG]

    --
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2015
  3. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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    Quote:
    Great postulation, but huge disconnect with what actually happens in real life.
     
  4. MoneyWellSpent

    MoneyWellSpent Senior member

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    I'm not misunderstanding a thing, and I've seen evidence of only one GY-welted shoe that they piled the cork higher than the inseam, which was John Lobb. All others make it flush, using the heated cork "paste" that is spread around like peanut butter using a flat scraping tool until it is flush with the inseam, and ready for outsole stitching.

    I'm happy to keep discussing reasonable things, but clearly you are out of your depth here and don't know what you are talking about. It doesn't take any intelligence at all to go to youtube, watch any of the dozens of videos where they dispense the cork, and spread it even with the inseam. You are simply mistaken.
     
  5. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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    Nice postulation based on fear, scare, and your age, but again a disconnect with real life experience.

    Inseam getting damaged!!! Inseam getting destroyed!!! Now we just need someone to post a picture of toe welt separating from the upper due to the inseam damage done by flushed metal toe plates to complete your story...
     
  6. MoneyWellSpent

    MoneyWellSpent Senior member

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    I'll go a step further on that mention of the cork on John Lobb's GY-welted shoes, and say that I've questioned it in the past wondering if it is even an accurate depiction of real-life. For the most part, I don't question what is shown in the videos/pictures, as I believe that they are accurate representations of daily factory processes. For the most part, I don't think they are doing anything for the video strictly for demonstration purposes, which isn't accurate.

    This example of John Lobb, on the other hand, I do question: http://www.johnlobb.com/us/190-steps-step-14#video

    There is no way that a outsole would fit over that cork mound, and I can only assume that they ground it down with a sander after it dried. Strictly an assumption, but there is no logic or reasoning to explain the amount of cork they put in the shoe on this video.

    Again, all others are clearly flush with the inseam. No question.
     
  7. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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    Its clear that you are believing in a sound hypothesis that has been rejected in real life. No amount of reasoning can argue against a believe.

    So go ahead and believe that metal toe taps are noisy or metal toe taps destroys inseams. In the meanwhile, I can wait for my welt to separate from the upper from the damaged/destroyed inseaming and walk without loud clicking noise.
     
  8. Nick V.

    Nick V. Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Here is a picture of a shoe we were working on yesterday.
    The sole was removed and the cork stripped. I took a 9-10 iron piece of leather and placed it on top of the welt. That represents a typical sole in thickness. I added the metal toe plate with a brass plated screw on top of the leather. I know that the leather (representing the sole) was not grooved to accept the toe plate. However if you look to the right of the toe plate, it's angled down. Something I didn't notice until later. That angle could easily represent the off-set of the groove necessary to mount the plate properly.
    You can also see some loose gemming material. A nearly blind apprentice could correct that.
    The screw does not protrude deep enough to disturb the inseam stitching. That stitching lies below the top of the welt.

    One can analyze as much as they want. I don't care to get into a debate. My intention is to share my experience and only that...
    We have literally done thousands of pairs of these. Not one has come back with inseam stitching failure. If the inseam stitching was severed it would eventually cause the welt to separate from the upper. It would be something obvious for me to see. Never happened.

    We had one instance (to my knowledge) where a screw loosened and popped out. Again a simple fix. The hole was filled and a new screw added. Just like most of us have done on a door hinge. No big deal.

    I think in Pb's case it's highly unusual that He runs into this problem often. I can tell you from my prospective, if we saw this as a norm, we wouldn't offer the service.

    Last, the only time we use a drill during this process is to widen the screw holes on top of the metal toe plate. This way we are sure that the screw head is properly counter sunk. When we screw the screws in each screw is done by hand. Our cobblers know the correct pressure that will snug the plate securely without stripping the leather.

    Maybe I've been lucky. Maybe we just know what we are doing. That's for others to analyze/dispute. For me, I'll continue to rely on the cold hard facts of MY experience.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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    You are assuming the last is flat at the bottom and cork cannot be compressed, neither of which is true.
     
  10. MoneyWellSpent

    MoneyWellSpent Senior member

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    Neither of these assumptions was made. I know the last isn't flat, but that isn't resulting in what is portrayed in the video.

    Obviously cork can be compressed, that's the point, and that is how the GY-welted footbed forms. But, it can't compress to the extent you see in the video.
     
  11. shoefan

    shoefan Senior member

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    The reality is that cork, while compressible, does not retain that compression. It is one of the most elastic materials known to man (in terms of its return to its original size after pressure/compression is relieved) -- once pressure is relieved, cork will return to 85% of its original volume almost immediately and 98% after a day. Cork is also very water tight and has low gas permeability -- that is why it makes such a great stopper for wine bottles, but not such a great filler for shoes. The footbed in a shoe with cork filler comes about from: a. the compression and movement of the leather fibers in the insole; and, b. the deterioration and movement of the cork particles as the cork filler breaks up due to wear. It is not due to long-term compression/shape change of the cork particles themselves.

    I have a number of cork sheets, 1/4" thick, as the cork comes from the tree, i.e. real cork, not a cork/binder combination. It is fairly brittle and not tremendously compressible/squishy. It wouldn't be good as filler for the shoe, as it is too brittle. It does make good heel lifts for fitters, since it is easy to cut, rasp/shape, and glue. It is also commonly used for orthopedic footwear applications.
     
  12. MoneyWellSpent

    MoneyWellSpent Senior member

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    Yes, this makes sense, and honestly wasn't lost on me. I should have worded my reply differently. The real issue is that the "cork" paste that is spread under the insole in GY-welted shoes is only partially cork. The material spreads to the areas of least compression during wear in order to arrive at the "footbed" in a GY shoe.

    My response to Chogall wasn't to go into the compression characteristics of cork, so much as to drive the point that the amount of material put in the bottoms of those Lobbs isn't standard practice in GY manufacturing, and I don't understand how they finish assembling the shoe with that much cork in it. I believe that they must over fill it, and then sand it down to ensure a completely filled void. Other manufacturers spread it flush with the inseam from the start, which means that the movement and contraction of the material over time leads to an under filled space under the insole.

    I don't have proof that this is what they are doing, except to say that in a tear down of a Lobb shoe, there isn't that much cork, and it certainly isn't breaking down enough to arrive at what is seen in a pair of Lobbs being repaired. I think they are approaching it like filling a hole in drywall. If you fill the hole flush, then the filler will contract and you have to go back and apply more. But, if you overfill it, then sand it flush, you have a better result.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2015
  13. emptym

    emptym Moderator Moderator

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    Sigh, there is no contradiction in saying that sometimes GY shoes form footbed and other times they don't. It's the same as saying some men are under 6" and some over 6".

    Hey Nick, great to see you on here. I'm guessing you don't personally handle every shoe that comes into your shop or keep records of such minutia, do you? Not to say that it's bad if you don't. As you know I have great respect for your shop and have referred friends and relatives in NYC to you. I've actually been planning to send a pair of unlined Alden shell loafers to you for resoling and should this coming week.

    Also, I'm wondering how often when minor problems happen the customer either (1) takes it to another shop for repair, (2) fixes it themselves, (3) just lives with it, or (4) gives the item away.

    I know that usually when I have a small problem, I don't return to the shop. Sometimes I wouldn't even for a relatively major problem. For example, yesterday I picked up a shirt from my usual alterations tailor. He was added a pocket to a shirt, but the stitching didn't match the other pocket (It was done with larger, more noticable thread, the wrong spi, and crooked at parts), so I just cut the stitching and removed the pocket. There's plenty of other stories I could tell... and I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

    But regarding the larger question, I have nothing against anyone who would install toe taps or the like. I've never installed toe taps, but I did glue on a Vibram topy or three when I commuted by bicycle. And I have a few pairs of boots and shoes w/ Dainite soles. I found them helpful for grip on a motorcycle (esp. backing up on a hill in the rain), but I must say the Bakers outsole DW uses is clearly more grippy than other outsole leather.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2015
  14. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Sorry to disappoint...not using Baker outsole. Love their insole shoulders but prefer Masur chestnut tan for outsole. It's firmer and finishes better.
     
  15. hitemup

    hitemup Active Member

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    DWF, where can I buy Masure outsoling?
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2015

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