1. Styleforum Gives - Holiday Charity Auction 9: A MTM nylon MA-1 bomber from Falcon Garments

    We are very proud to present this year's edition of the Styleforum Holiday Charity Auctions, this year in support of the Ronald McDonald House Charities of Spokane (www.rmhcspokane.org). Each Auction lasts 24 hours. Please follow and bid on all the auctions.

    The 6th auction of the year is for a nylon MA-1 from Falcon garments. Please bid often and generously here

    Fok and the Styleforum Team.

    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice

STYLE. COMMUNITY. GREAT CLOTHING.

Bored of counting likes on social networks? At Styleforum, you’ll find rousing discussions that go beyond strings of emojis.

Click Here to join Styleforum's thousands of style enthusiasts today!

shoe construction...behind the veil

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by DWFII, Jul 24, 2010.

  1. chogall

    chogall Distinguished Member

    Messages:
    6,564
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Scientific method relies on repeatable empirical evidences to validate hypotheses to repeal erroneous logic.

    Your hypothesis is that flushed metal toe taps are noisy. And I actually had the same hypothesis until I walked many distances in shoes with flushed metal toe taps. My experiences, along with others experience rejected your (and my former) hypothesis.
     


  2. chogall

    chogall Distinguished Member

    Messages:
    6,564
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    @DWFII If we geek it out, sound is the byproduct of the kinetic energy released when two forces clashed.

    Here's how I would model and break down a stride motion:

    1) Heel clashed against ground from distance. Two forces directly clash against each other without much buffer aside from sock lining silicon/rubber cushion and heel stack. This is the largest force generated during a stride and highest potential in noise/heat generation.

    2) Then ball clash against ground from a very small distance. The clash between ball and ground is significantly weaker than heel vs ground due to i) shorter covered distance and ii) heel become the pivot in 1) and offsetting an already weaker direct force into a minor angular force. Minor force, minor noise/heat generated.

    3) Then toe of clash against ground at your toe spring height, usually less than standard heel height of 1". Now the ball become the pivot and the distance covered is just the toe spring. Minuscule force, minuscule noise/heat.

    4) And finally, as foot leaves ground, the very tip of the toe becomes the pivot, bears all the downward force (a % of your weight x g, F=ma, Newton's second law of motion factored by vectoring). Since the tip is already on the ground, there will be no clashing between toe tips and ground, or zero kinetic energy released, or zero noise/heat generated. However, since the toe tip is the weight bearing pivot, the potential energy will distress and deform the toe tip. Thus, higher yield/tensile strength material is better suited.

    From this model, here are my hypotheses :

    A) metal toe tips only makes little noises
    B) metal heel tips makes loud noise and is dangerous to walk on
    C) higher tensile/yield strength material is more suitable for toe tips due to its weight bearing nature.
    D) metal toe tips makes the most noise when landing on the toe tips first where the most kinetic energy is generated, which is dissipated as sound/heat.

    Of which,
    A) is confirmed through my experience (and some others experiences)\
    B) is confirmed through my experience (with the best skating shoes - Florsheim V-cleats LWB)
    D) is again confirmed through my experience (and many other's experiences)

    For C), out of the few methods you've provided in this thread,
    i.) leather is insufficient, verified by the invention of various toe/heel tips.
    ii) leather with nails is again insufficient as nails are not pinned at the edge of the sole,
    iii) rubber is good as it has good yield strength and can be somewhat reinforced by the tacks,
    iv) steel has the best yield strength out of all three materials

    That said, we can then taken your argument into account, where you claimed that screws for mounting flushed metal toe taps destroy shoe inseam. Rubber toe tips w/ brass tacks seems to be the best option out of all, with Metal being close second.

    However, this conclusion rests the validity of your argument. I don't want to tear my shoes apart to verify your argument. And unfortunately you lack access to worn shoes with flushed metal toe taps to verify your own argument.

    Thus, in conclusion:
    1) the best choice for toe tip would be flushed metal toe tips, unless you can verify your claim of screws of metal toe taps destroying shoe inseaming. And for the choice of metal toe tips, Lulu was recommended over Triumph by a shoemaker.

    2) flushed metal toe taps makes minuscule noise as there usually no clash between the toe taps and the ground to release kinetic energy into sound energy.

    p.s., my conclusion is true as long as my modeling is true. The only way to disprove my conclusion is to disprove my model.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2015


  3. chogall

    chogall Distinguished Member

    Messages:
    6,564
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    @DWFII

    Here's some basic arithmetic that rejects your claim/hypothesis of screws destroying inseams.

    Given: High grade outsoles from Barkers or JR are usually ~5mm thick after finishing. Flushed metal toe taps are 1.5mm thick and the screws/nails are usually 1/4" or 6.35mm long. Gemming is usally 5mm thick for GY welted manufacturers. Low grade cork sheet is usually 1/16" thick or 1.5875mm. Low grade felt sheets are usually 1mm or 1/16" (1.5875mm) thick.

    By simple arithmetic,

    GY Welted:
    Outsole thickness ~ 5mm
    less flushed metal toe tap screw of 1/4" or = 6.35mm
    -----------------------------------------------------
    = Penetration ~ 1.35mm
    less gemming thickness of 5mm (cork layers usually thicker than 5mm as observed in JL RTW pictures and EG/G&G/C&J dissections)
    ------------------------------------------------------
    = Margin of 3.65mm.
    In other words, flush metal toe taps should not touch GY welted inseam at all.

    Hand Welted:
    Outsole thickness ~ 5mm
    less flushed metal toe tap screw of 1/4" or = 6.35mm
    -----------------------------------------------------
    = Penetration ~ 1.35mm
    less low grade cork sheet thickness of 1/16" or = 1.5875mm
    or less low grade felt sheet of 1mm or 1/16" = 1.5875mm
    ------------------------------------------------------
    = Margin of 0.2375mm cork/felt or margin of (-0.35mm) low grade felt
    In other words, flush metal toe taps should not touch hand welted inseam with low grade cork sheet filler/mediocre grade felt lining at all. But it could penetrate inseam on low grade 1mm thin felt filler.

    In conclusion, simple arithmetic proved your baseless claim/postulation/theory erroneous and WRONG for both GY welted or hand sewn/welted constructions. Or low grade 1mm thin felt filler were used, aka cost cutting techniques by bespoke shoemakers using felt liners/fillers..

    EDIT: lets geek it out instead of throwing decades of experience as the weight/basis of argument, since I will never out grow our age differences.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2015


  4. chogall

    chogall Distinguished Member

    Messages:
    6,564
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    @DWFII

    Regarding yield (tensil) strength, measured in Mega Pascal/meter (MPa):

    Stainless steel ~ 520 MPa
    Pine wood ~ 40 MPa
    Rubber ~ 15 MPa
    Leather ~ 33lb/inch = 589kg/meter = 0.00058931 MPa

    In conclusion, leather is at 5 degrees of magnitude weaker than rubber and 6 degrees magnitude weaker than stainless steel. In other words, leather is extremely inferior material for toe taps compare to rubber or stainless steel. And it is extremely prone to deformation and wear and tear compare to both rubber and steel.

    [​IMG]

    p.s., I respect very much your ability and artistry of shoemaking. But I have sufficient reason to doubt in your capability of scientific reasoning. Afterall, I am a trained engineer and you are a trained shoemaker.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2015


  5. chogall

    chogall Distinguished Member

    Messages:
    6,564
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Oh, and by the way, initials/brass nailed outsole at the waist does penetrate into the insole, according to an SC dissection.

    No, I will not provide pictures since scientific evidence is little appreciated in this thread/forum.

    Or in the words of @emptym with his economist reasoning, on one hand something is true and on the other hand the exact opposite is also true.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2015


  6. bdavro23

    bdavro23 Distinguished Member

    Messages:
    1,050
    Likes Received:
    546
    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2014
    ^ Your ability to produce so many words that dont actually have any relationship to the topic at hand is truly impressive. Obfuscation for the purpose of furthering your baseless points is not only irritating, its disingenuous and tiring. I am sure that your recent posts answer A question, but I am likewise sure that the question they answered were only asked in your head.

    Exhausting...
     


  7. MoneyWellSpent

    MoneyWellSpent Distinguished Member

    Messages:
    2,494
    Likes Received:
    732
    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2012
    Chogall, the main hole in your theory is a misunderstanding of the construction of the shoe. If the screw punctures through the outsole, it can hit the inseam. That doesn't guarantee that it will hit the thread, but the inseam system can be effected, nonetheless.

    Everything is brought up to level (flush) on the bottom before the outsole is stitched on. Thus, the cork (or felt), is in the void between the ribs, holdfast, or channel of the inseam. They are made thick enough to level out the rim of the inseam when looking at the shoes while they are upside down. This means that you can't base your calculations with the thicknesses of the fillers as part of the equation. They aren't a factor.

    If the screw is drilled through the outsole directly over or adjacent to the inseam, then it will hit it as soon as it is through the outsole.

    This isn't a guarantee of a problem, but it is within the realm of possibility. Like most things in these discussions, nobody is saying that the shoes are guaranteed to be destroyed, or implode, or explode. Rather, that they are being exposed to danger that isn't best practice in the eyes of a conservative shoemaker that wants to eliminate all potential for weakness.

    As an engineer, I'd think you would understand that line of thinking.
     


  8. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    8,464
    Likes Received:
    3,075
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2008
    Location:
    The Highlands of Central Oregon
    So, Mr. Science...

    I didn't see any allowance for the fact that these metal plates are inlaid into the outsole. Did I miss it?

    Using your figures...If you subtract the 1.5mm of the toe plate from the 5mm of the outsole you end up with the remaining leather being only 3.5mm thick. If the rabbet is cut is very precisely.

    If the screws are countersunk and sit flush to the surface of the toe plate when mounted they will penetrate 3mm or more into the underlying substrate, if the screws are tightened down just to the point of contact with the countersink. Presumably, however, you'd want to tighten the screws till they were tight...which hopefully / ideally drives the screw that much deeper. [Parenthetically,screws don't hold simply because of their existence in a material, they hold because they create compression while drawing materials together. That's why the head of a wood screw will sink into wood even though it is not countersunk.]

    Welt itself is not 5mm thick....it's generally around 3mm. But whatever filler is used in the forepart, it fills only to the level of the welt. Everything below that level (down to the insole) is beside the point. The underside of the outsole has to be in contact with, and flush to, the surface of the welt.

    If the outsole is in flush contact with the welt, the screw will protrude from the underside of the outsole by nearly 3mm. Which means that the screw...at it's most lightly tightened can still penetrate the inseam...which is flush with the welt...by at least 2mm (assuming the inseaming thread is in a groove in the welt) . And if the screw is tightened to the point where it is really tight, it will draw more inseam upward into the compression joint...potentially cutting thread and canvas and other materials that are not structurally strong enough to be drawn upwards.

    And all of this ignores the fact that when flush mounted, esp. in an already made shoe, a rabbet has to be cut to accept the plate. At what depth do you think the outseam is? At the very best...with a vertical channel...it will be just about the level where it will be cut / destroyed by insetting the toe plate. And with horizontal channels the depth is often significantly less.

    Now I'm not a scientist. But I suggest your analysis is another of your epic fails. Failure to comprehend, failure to follow through, failure to know your subject and your materials. Kind of like saying that wood is not fibrous--more "Chogal science," I suppose.

    Perhaps if you had a sidekick...a Mr. (or Mrs.) Mathematician...your analysis would be more convincing. Or if you'd actually had ever torn apart a pair of shoes that had flush mounted toe plates and seen the holes in the inseam. Or attempted to mount a pair yourself.

    Or perhaps if you were an engineer....

    edited for punctuation and clarity
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2015


  9. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    8,464
    Likes Received:
    3,075
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2008
    Location:
    The Highlands of Central Oregon
    

    Very nice. Sorry my response missed yours--ships passing in the night.
     


  10. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    8,464
    Likes Received:
    3,075
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2008
    Location:
    The Highlands of Central Oregon
    

    And no wonder...

    As far as the brass nails are concerned, I suppose you know exactly the length the brass nails that are being driven...I mean if we take you at your "scientific" word we have to assume that brass nails only come in one length.

    Funny that...I have brass nails ranging from 3/16" long to 5/8" long.
     


  11. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    8,464
    Likes Received:
    3,075
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2008
    Location:
    The Highlands of Central Oregon
    As for the matter of noise....

    If you lay a piece of soling leather on the floor and nudge it with your foot will it not make a noise? If you drop it from the god-awful height of one centimeter will it not make a noise?

    If you lay a quarter on the floor and nudge it with your foot will it not make a noise? If you drop it from 1cm will it not make a noise?

    The toe of the shoe is driven downward and pushed off of by the action of walking. That's what causes the outsole to wear down at the toe. It is the force of that motion that causes uneven wear.

    Even a leather toe will make noise when driven forcefully into the ground and pushed off of.

    If there is no noise, you're not pushing off with the toe of your shoe the way you should be. If you're not hearing a metallic scrape when you have flush mounted toe plates, you don't need them and the only reason you have them mounted is because you heard they were cool. Do "the sheep look up"?

    Does an iron toe plate make as much noise as an iron heel plate? No. I never said it did. I don't know why the Panzer IV noise of a heel plate should be held up as the standard against which we measure the clangorous susurration of the toe plate. There's is no comparison. I ken that fine. I make it a point to notice these things.

    But I wonder if...after a while...you can hear even the heel plate noise. If, like foot odor, you don't simply get used to it.

    I wonder if Jacob Marley heard his own iron.

    edited for punctuation and clarity
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2015


  12. eljimberino

    eljimberino Senior Member

    Messages:
    270
    Likes Received:
    47
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2014
    Location:
    Fremantle.
    As an estimate, how much more does a leather outsole breathe than a rubber outsole?

    Two times more? Three times as much?
     


  13. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    8,464
    Likes Received:
    3,075
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2008
    Location:
    The Highlands of Central Oregon
    

    One last debunking...I never said (or implied) that rubber or leather was stronger than steel. In fact, in numerous other posts I suggested just the opposite. But again, you don't have the courtesy to read other people's posts. So this is another red herring coming from yet another Dr. Noah Tall...in a seemingly endless clone appearing regularly on this channel.


    Given what we've seen here, thank god.

    As for the respect bit...give it a rest--it's just mealy-mouthed pretense. It actually makes me feel a little demeaned to hear you say it. I'd be much, much happier if you just give me...and all the others in this thread...the respect of actually reading what is posted.

    edited for punctuation and clarity
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2015


  14. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    8,464
    Likes Received:
    3,075
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2008
    Location:
    The Highlands of Central Oregon
    

    Two times, three times, one thousand times...the comparison is meaningless.

    Depending on how, and with what, a leather outsole is mounted, the correct answer is ∞. Infinitely more.

    In other words, a rubber outsole does not breathe at all. Period.

    One of the most salient properties of leather ...and why it has survived over the course of 10,000 years as the preferred material (among some) for making shoes...is that it breathes.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2015


  15. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    8,464
    Likes Received:
    3,075
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2008
    Location:
    The Highlands of Central Oregon
    

    I just thought this bore repeating. I wish I could have given your post another thumbs up ...

    In lieu of that, however...

    :fonz:

    A glass with you, sir...

    :cheers:
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2015


Share This Page

Styleforum is proudly sponsored by