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shoe construction...behind the veil

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by DWFII, Jul 24, 2010.

  1. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Stylish Dinosaur Dubiously Honored

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    Doesn't that span decades? :confused:
     


  2. MoneyWellSpent

    MoneyWellSpent Distinguished Member

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    That's what I was saying with why I buy Goodyear-welted shoes instead of Blake/Rapid despite the latter being a more robust construction. I believe that the shoe as a whole is more comfortable between the two. Subjective I know, but regardless, that's the decision I've made until such a time that I can combine comfort and quality in a hand-welted shoe, and write off the price difference.

    Again, the whole discussion was originally started by me due to the questions about the ability of the shoe as a whole being able to form a footbed. It was my contention that a Blake/Rapid couldn't form a meaningful one due to the construction method combined with the relatively thin leather insole. That sparked an interest in what sort of footbed one could reasonably expect from a hand-welted shoe due to it's necessity for a thicker insole. Hence my request for DW to send me a picture of one, which he was gracious to do.

    DW isn't fond of cork, so I was also curious about how much of a footbed may be reasonably expected in a hand-welted bespoke shoe, since they are generally accepted as the best from both quality and comfort. Part of this was based in attempting to determine how much of the foot-forming marketing that is touted by the GY-welted manufacturers (and seen in the insoles we've been discussing) is really needed for maximum comfort in a leather dress shoe/boot.
     


  3. chogall

    chogall Distinguished Member

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    Gen Y then Gen X.
     


  4. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Stylish Dinosaur Dubiously Honored

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    Generation Y comes after Generation X.
     


  5. chogall

    chogall Distinguished Member

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    Great, let me start by subtracting photos.
     


  6. Numbernine

    Numbernine Distinguished Member

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    No no that's fine I just wanted to see these things created in an atmosphere free of preconceptions
     


  7. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Again...just as with your incomprehensible Googly-gook German translation...it didn't mean anything.

    You didn't read what I wrote.

    You redacted what fit your preconceptions,

    and you posted photos against a argument that wasn't ever made...by anyone.

    How can anyone have a conversation with someone who acts like that?



    Possibly...if you discount wisdom and experience...

    My grandson thinks / imagines he has super powers. Maybe he does...but life has taught me the value of reality and survival--I dread his penchant to run out in the street.

    Learning without preconceptions can be so tragic.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2015


  8. emptym

    emptym Moderator Moderator

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    It's not a 180. One comment says one or more GYW had a footbed. The other says one or more did not. Both are perfectly compatible statements.

    If this is the case, then you and DW are not defining the word "footbed" in the same way.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2015


  9. chogall

    chogall Distinguished Member

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    Of course. In politically correct America, making contradictory U turn statements is sometimes okay and sometimes not okay. Some single occurrence can be extrapolated to represent a population and some cannot. Some gemmings fail and some gemmings don't. Some leather insoles gets foot beds and some do not. "All my economists say, one the one hand on the other." - H. Truman

    I like DWFII's definition of foot bed "A foot bed is a permanent, impression of the plantar topography of the foot into the leather such that the contours of the foot are reflected and supported by the insole".

    And I do see it on my el cheapo Zara all leather slippers, where fiber compression is clearly visible and more severe in the weight bearing areas, up to almost 1mm more depth. Pretty damn permanent impression, follows my feet contours for sure, but then the slippers/insole is not supportive because its a pair of damn slipper.

    It might not be the same definition as you interpreted or DW's intent. Not the first time I've disagreed w/ DWFII on the interpretation of definition of things despite my respect for him as a good bespoke shoemaker (my definition, of course).
     


  10. chogall

    chogall Distinguished Member

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    A lot of hand welted shoes uses cork fillers; not agglomerated cork composition bottom filler, but cork sheets. Notable examples include Saint Crispins and Vass.

    Norwegian sewn shoes sometimes don't have any fillers between insole and mid/outsole depending on the maker, some do (Mrsan), some don't (Delos).

    I've seen EVA and cork for the custom ones as they are easier to mold and provides very good cushioning. Maybe cork isn't that if its the material of choice...
     


  11. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    There was no period there. You don't read. Period. You cherry pick. You redact and then you have the utter duplicitous gall to talk about respect.

    The entire sentence was

    "A foot bed is a permanent, impression of the plantar topography of the foot into the leather such that the contours of the foot are reflected and supported by the insole[COLOR=FF0000]; such that foot always finds the same position in the shoe, and is prevented from shifting around by those contours.[/COLOR]"

    I dislike pretense...have zero respect for it.

    edited for punctuation and clarity
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2015


  12. MoneyWellSpent

    MoneyWellSpent Distinguished Member

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    A lot of hand welted shoes uses cork fillers; not agglomerated cork composition bottom filler, but cork sheets.  Notable examples include Saint Crispins and Vass.

    Norwegian sewn shoes sometimes don't have any fillers between insole and mid/outsole depending on the maker, some do (Mrsan), some don't (Delos).

    This is true, but it isn't for the same reason as its used in GY-welting. The raised canvas rib on the gemming necessitates a filler. In hand-welted shoes this isn't always the case.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2015


  13. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Cork sheets? Non-"agglomerated?" Solid cork sheets?

    I could be wrong but I don't think so. I'd like to see some evidence, such as a photo or a link with photos, to support that assertion.

    edited for punctuation and clarity
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2015


  14. MoneyWellSpent

    MoneyWellSpent Distinguished Member

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    I have seen usage of the cork sheets like what you can find at a common hardware store, where it comes in a small roll and can be cut to size. I'm not fully sure what it's most common purpose is. Perhaps a specialized drawer or shelf liner, or just for making your own bulletin board? At any rate, it's the same stuff, and I don't know how it is manufacured. It is decidedly different from the heated paste-like stuff that is injected in GY-welting manufacturing.

    I've seen some shoemaking videos where thus stuff is cut to shape and inserted in the void, then rasped to the proper thickness before the outsole is sewn on.

    Watch the "St. Crispins: The Complete Process" video on youtube, where it is used as a forepart filler. I've seen other videos as well, but I'd have to go back and search.

    EDIT: Also see the "St.Crispins-insight view 2009" video on youtube around the 2:10 mark.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2015


  15. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Oh...if that's what's meant...hell, it's commonplace. That's what most shoe repairs use to replace the original cork. But it is "agglomerated." It is particulated. It is only "sheet" cork in the sense that it has been agglomerated into sheets.

    Cork comes off the cork tree in sheets but it is not used that way. Almost every cork application you can think of is comprised of particulated cork. Some will be made of finely ground cork some of larger chunks. Depending on the application, the matrix that holds these pieces together can be as simple as tar (the old heated stuff was tar based, AFAIK) or neoprene or polyurethane.

    But solid sheets...I don't think so.

    I haven't seen the entire St. Crispins video but the build-ups they are using on the lasts are particulated cork. And the forepart filler at approx. 6:53 is particulated cork. Vass was mentioned as using sheets. If HMSFM is a valid reflection of their current processes, they're using also particulated cork.

    It's all basically the same cork as in the heated stuff. Only the glue / matrix changes.

    Every bit of it "agglomerated" cork.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2015


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