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shoe construction...behind the veil

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by DWFII, Jul 24, 2010.

  1. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    It bears repeating....
     


  2. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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    Not my words, just a comment from a shoemaker who said SC uses insole with too small irons (thickness) thus the edge of sock liners wont curl up.

    This is why 3-D scanned feet will never make good lasts...if the algorithm that translates from German to English (and how long has such translation software been around) can't end up with something that is at least minimally comprehensible how is anyone going to write code to translate a scanned foot into instructions for a last that actually fits that foot?

    Are you just latching on to stuff--ideas and concepts...that spring mostly from speculation and wishful thinking...regardless of whether it makes sense or not? just to advance your contrariness?

    German or English or some distorted conflation of both a lot of what you are saying in this discussion is completely oblivious to the points others are making much less simple logic.

    Of course it could not, because in your world of shoemaking everything deteriorates and things in the past are better than things in the present. In my world everything gets better. Thus its understandable that you are discrediting translation algorithms of today based on an old translation from 2008 and extrapolate to claim that future of computerized translation is hopeless.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2015


  3. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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  4. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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    You are comparing leather compression of a 15 years worn daily old hand welted insole vs. a fairly less worn GY welted or Blake/rapid insole.

    Difference is definitely significant...
     


  5. MoneyWellSpent

    MoneyWellSpent Senior member

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    [​IMG]

    You can't be implying that the depth of the footbed will increase significantly on the GY-welted shoes. Short of the leather actually wearing thin due to friction against the foot, there just isn't enough substance there for substantial difference to ever take place.

    Let's stay reasonable in our discussion. The fibers can only compress so far.
     


  6. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    I don't know what you think you're reading there...I know full well, and have said as much a thousand times, that one example is not evidence. Ten examples isn't evidence of anything...but possibility.

    That's why I stress my own experiences. As a non-shoemaker your exposure to different techniques; your acquaintance with the properties and characteristics of materials; your recognition of...even ability to recognize...the synergy between them that makes a good shoe (or doesn't) is, perforce, limited by comparison to mine. Virtually at any level of instances.

    But bottom line is that any thoughtful, rational reading of that statement...esp. in context...doesn't come off as a broad observation about GY and/or footbeds, much less a linking of GY to the formation of a footbed.

    In fact...in context...it was just a recollection / reiteration of how this discussion got started and why I posted the photos of my deconstructed boot...all simply to put everything in perspective.

    For those who value perspective.

    My auld Da used to say that "if you don't know what you're talking about the worse thing you can do is open your mouth and prove it."

    edited for punctuation and clarity
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2015


  7. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Aye, but the real difference is that I have hard, concrete, physical evidence to support my theses, while all you have is wishful thinking, fantasy, and pipe dreams. Your world is la-la land.
     


  8. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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    A fair, reasonable, and scientific comparison would be comparing the % compression of different insoles under different construction methods after the same/similar amount of wear. Not the absolute value of compression on a different time scale, which would only promote thick insoles, old shoes, instead of foot bed forming capability of different construction methods.

    On a side note, since you are a podiatrist (correct me if I am wrong), what material is generally used for orthotics insoles, and why?
     


  9. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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    You made your [generalized or not] statement. I posted photos against your statement.

    That is all.

    My younger age and the ability to learn and adopt might play some part to my wishful thinking. Being able to learn without preconception helps as well.
     


  10. MoneyWellSpent

    MoneyWellSpent Senior member

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    I am not a podiatrist, but I do work in medical research, so I understand that we aren't dealing with scientifically tested comparisons in this discussion. But, don't keep getting caught up in the construction method. The insole's footbed forming capacity isn't concerning the construction method of the shoe. It is concerning the thickness, grain structure, location of origin on the animal hide, tannage, etc. The reason people are throwing out construction methods in the discussion is due to the general types of insoles used in those methods, not because the method itself is directly related to the footbed per se. You could take an insole like the one DW is using in his boots and make a Blake/Rapid shoe with it and expect the same footbed to form.

    What we are trying to say is simply that non-hand-welted shoes don't generally use leather that is thick enough to form a meaningful footbed by itself. This is simply due to the lack of need for the thickness because they don't have to be channeled for inseaming. It's a cost cutting measure. The leather can be of great quality, but simply be from a portion of the hide that doesn't lend itself to the preferred character traits that are most ideal for an insole.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2015


  11. MoneyWellSpent

    MoneyWellSpent Senior member

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    I don't know that there is one particular material used for orthotic insoles. I've seen plastic ones, foam ones, cork ones, you name it. I've seen custom moulded space-age plasics to gel filled store bought ones.
     


  12. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Chogall, I am curious, how old are you?
     


  13. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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    I am not the one getting caught up in construction methods.

    My point is, leather insoles, thin or thick, will get foot beds from fiber compression. Thicker ones will compress more (not as a %, but absolute value) than thiner ones, but it doesn't exclude thin leather insoles having foot beds. Meaningful or not is determined by the shoes as a whole not the insole or sock lining alone.

    Even my 10 years old el cheapo all leather slipper from Zara has pretty deep food bed, but it doesn't have good support at all.

    Cases could be made for different insole thickness for different construction/shoe styles instead of cost cutting alone, i.e., blake shoes, pumps, slippers, etc...
     


  14. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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    Gen X/Y
     


  15. Numbernine

    Numbernine Senior member

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    Perhaps you could show us the .wonderful things you have created with this great gift of youth as DFW has done in spades
     


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