Shaq Gets Traded to the Suns

[landho]

Turkoglu looks pretty freakin' good right now

 

[chronoaug]

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insid...ge=Suns-080207

Good article if you have insider. Has some other trades for marion that the author thought would be better for the suns since the argument is that they could've done better for marion. Here's a funny quote from a GM:

Listen to one GM talk about Marion: "Our team thinks Marion is still one of the top 10 players in the league. He's so good defensively. He reminds me a bit of Ron Artest back when he was playing well in Indiana. On any given night he could go out there and shut down the opposing team's best player. Marion is so long, athletic and quick, he can guard just about anyone. Add in his offense and I think he's one of the most valuable players in the league."

And Shaq? Said the same GM: "He can't guard anyone. He can't get up and down the floor. You'd expect a desperate team like the Knicks or Nets to make a move for Shaq ... but the Suns? I still can't believe it. They are making a huge mistake. Trading Marion for Shaq will destroy that team, not only this year, but for years to come. I'm sure [Lakers owner] Jerry Buss and [Mavericks owner] Mark Cuban are thrilled."

Pretty harsh stuff.

 

[whacked]

^ Now that I think about it Marion got to be one of the most overrated defender in the NBA.

"... he can guard just about anyone". Oh please.

There's a reason Raja Bell gets the Kobe assignment every Suns-Lakers matchup - and as far back as I could recall, whenever Bell leaves the game Kobe would just destroy the Suns. Hell, Cuttino Mobley did a much better job in the Kings-Lakers '05 playoff series than the Matrix ever could.

And remember how Lamar Odom owned Marion in every single way just 2 years ago?

To be fair, Marion is a more than competent, if not very good, help defender. But when it comes to straight up man-to-man D, he ain't no Dennis Rodman or Michael Cooper.

 

[chronoaug]

Marion is more suited for guarding the perimeter big men and rangy small forwards than he is guys who pound it like odom, bynum(well at least against the suns, smart phil always makes him do this) or do crazy quick 2guards like kobe. I don't believe it makes him overrated as it's asking way too much to ask him to be a complete lockdown player on every position. The thing is, he can guard all of them competently, and some positions at an elite level. Just like Ben Wallace was an elite defender when guarding down low bigs, but struggled a bit with guys who would bring him up high. Same with Ron Artest, bruce bowen and other lock down defenders.

 

[eg1]

Originally Posted by chronoaug

A hockey boy, eh? The NHL is so confusing these days with all the moves. Sucks to be the one team that doesn't make them.


The one thing that's difficult for shaq now is foul trouble. He isn't as quick as he used to be so he picks up more fouls now and has trouble getting decent minutes. I don't think he'll play more than 25-30 minutes in phoenix. Is shaq going to play in the game tonight?

I haven't followed hockey seriously for about 20 years now. Thankfully I actually hate the Leafs -- their moronic fans consume virtually all the local talk-radio air time, leaving only tiny scraps for Raptors fans like myself.

 

[landho]

Originally Posted by chronoaug

Marion is more suited for guarding the perimeter big men and rangy small forwards than he is guys who pound it like odom, bynum(well at least against the suns, smart phil always makes him do this) or do crazy quick 2guards like kobe. I don't believe it makes him overrated as it's asking way too much to ask him to be a complete lockdown player on every position. The thing is, he can guard all of them competently, and some positions at an elite level. Just like Ben Wallace was an elite defender when guarding down low bigs, but struggled a bit with guys who would bring him up high. Same with Ron Artest, bruce bowen and other lock down defenders.

But Odom really isn't a banger--he's traditionally a small forward because of his ball-handling skills and his ability to play on the wing. He's been playing out of position the last few years. The reason he kept taking it inside against Marion is that he had a mismatch there and he and Phil both knew that he could take it down against Marion and get a shot off anytime he wanted.

Marion is very similar to Tayshaun Prince, although Prince has a better offensive skill set and Marion is more athletic. When the Pistons play the Lakers, however, Saunders doesn't hesitate to put Prince on Kobe. Just a point.

No one is arguing that Marion is a bad defender--he's a good one. But his numbers reflect weakside play and gambling, I think, although maybe that's a little unfair because the Suns have never had a strong presence in the middle to capitalize on Marion's particular defensive talents. And this of course begs another question--if Marion is such a good defender, then why are the Suns such a bad defensive team? That aside, when you talk about elite perimeter defenders, you think of Ron Artest, Tayshaun Prince, Bruce Bowen (not this year's model), Kobe.... But you don't really think of Marion. At least I don't. He's more of a guy who does a little bit of everything (hence the nickname), but he doesn't do any of it great.

 

[jpeirpont]

Originally Posted by whacked

There's a reason Raja Bell gets the Kobe assignment every Suns-Lakers matchup - and as far back as I could recall, whenever Bell leaves the game Kobe would just destroy the Suns.

From what I watched he didn't wait till Bell went to the bench.

 

[chronoaug]

Yea, sorry guys but bell doesn't shut down kobe or anything. When they play the suns, phil jackson generally plays a different kind of game to take advantage of the suns' weaknesses but kobe still has ups and downs like he does against most all defenders. There has yet to be a "kobe stopper", bell is just the guy who guards him most on the suns. I mean, byron russell used to do an ok job on jordan for stretches and guarded him a lot but he certainly wasn't a "jordan stopper". The shawn kemp/ruben patterson stuff was pretty funny though, i must admit. I miss kemp...


When is shaq supposed to play his first game as a sun? Hopefully, nbatv will televise it.

 

[whacked]

Originally Posted by jpeirpont

From what I watched he didn't wait till Bell went to the bench.

Oh I was not saying Raja Bell is to Kobe Bryant what kryptonite is to Superman, but the Suns do remarkably suffer on D when Bell is out.

Originally Posted by chronoaug

Marion is more suited for guarding the perimeter big men and rangy small forwards than he is guys who pound it like odom, bynum(well at least against the suns, smart phil always makes him do this) or do crazy quick 2guards like kobe

Is there any more qualifiers that you forgot to use?

How many semi-decent point forward are there anyway? We all know Marion can't keep up with Dirk to save his life.

Dude, that makes him a good defender, no more no less. And as landho said, certainly not in Artest's league.

 

[landho]

...

 

[chronoaug]

It's not about qualifiers. Artest isn't quick enough to keep up with the kobes at an elite level and not big enough to guard the duncans at an elite level. Same with prince (rip's a pretty underrated defender. he's not amazing but he's pretty solid) and bruce. There are actually a lot of small forward/power forward hybrids in the nba these days. Especially with a lot of teams playing small ball so it's valuable to have good defensive guys at the 3 spot. Marion guards certain styles at an elite level, and others at a good level. Same with bruce/artest/prince/ben wallace. If you think they can all guard 3 different styles of player at an elite level you're absolutely fooling yourself.

I still don't see ron artest as an elite defender the past season and a half. I think it's because he doesn't care as much. I really hope that artest gets moved before the deadline to a contender. I remember hearing a rumor about the nuggets being interested in him. Can you imagine a better off court behavior team than artest, iverson, melo and jr smith? David stern just shuttered.

 

[landho]

Originally Posted by chronoaug

There has yet to be a "kobe stopper"

Ruben Patterson, the original Kobe Stopper, broke Kobe's four-game streak of scoring 45 points points or more by holding him to 41.

Originally Posted by whacked

How many semi-decent point forward are there anyway?

 

[76classic]

And Shaq? Said the same GM: "He can't guard anyone. He can't get up and down the floor. You'd expect a desperate team like the Knicks or Nets to make a move for Shaq ... but the Suns? I still can't believe it. They are making a huge mistake. Trading Marion for Shaq will destroy that team, not only this year, but for years to come. I'm sure [Lakers owner] Jerry Buss and [Mavericks owner] Mark Cuban are thrilled."


I don't think it will be as bad as many people think. Sometimes a change of scenery does help. He has a realistic chance to grab another ring and he doesn't have to be the man logging 35-40 minutes. Shaq and Amare up front. Please. I'll take it. Last 4 champs have been Spurs, Pistons, Heat, Spurs. None were high powered run and gun. That hasn't been done since Showtime Lakers. It hasn't worked for the Suns or the Mavs, so maybe this change could be good. Besides, usually fast breaks aren't 5 on 5, so the Suns can still pick their spots when to run or not.

 

[Brian278]

Originally Posted by 76classic

Besides, usually fast breaks aren't 5 on 5, so the Suns can still pick their spots when to run or not.

People keep pointing this out, that they can just leave Shaq behind when they run. But it effectively means they're running 4 on 5 or at the least 4 on 4 when they used to have all 5 guys with the ability to get out on the break. The beauty of the Suns was that their "center" was Amare, who is fast and quick and will finish on anybody and would get down the court for the pass from Nash. And then from down on Marion, Jones, etc. were all at least as fast. Now you just added one guy who isn't going to get back down the floor, and there is no way they aren't going to have a reduced ability to run anyway. Not to mention that Marion was often the first guy down the court.

 

[landho]

Originally Posted by Brian278

People keep pointing this out, that they can just leave Shaq behind when they run. But it effectively means they're running 4 on 5 or at the least 4 on 4 when they used to have all 5 guys with the ability to get out on the break. The beauty of the Suns was that their "center" was Amare, who is fast and quick and will finish on anybody and would get down the court for the pass from Nash. And then from down on Marion, Jones, etc. were all at least as fast. Now you just added one guy who isn't going to get back down the floor, and there is no way they aren't going to have a reduced ability to run anyway. Not to mention that Marion was often the first guy down the court.

In the "old" days, they ran Kurt Thomas at center and Amare at power forward, and they still had ample opportunity to run fast breaks. And while Marion did get down the floor quickly, it's not like Raja Bell's a slouch. (I assume that Shaq won't be starting or will starting only part of the time.)