selvage question

[Godmother]

SELVAGE DENIM is woven on ANTIQUE SHUTTLE LOOMS....most bought from USA in the 80's by the JAPANESE ( smart )....duh....US denim mills decided to sell off all the old looms..except for a handful which Cone Mills still weaves out of their White Oak palnt. Real Selvage never has " frayed edge " and the width of the fabric is about 28-29 inches wide from selvage edge to selvage edge. That is why selvage jeans cost so much....they are all cut along the selvage edge ( the outseam ) and one jean consumes over 3 1/2 yards of denim for one pair of jeans. 5EP denim is woven on antique shuttle looms by one of the oldest textile mills in JAPAN ( est 113 years ago ). We use a very special dye color using pure indigo mix and our selvage is our own design. RAW DENIM is not washed and had a " hard " starch hand feel. For example 5EP denim is SANFORIZED ( pre shrunk ) and PRE SKEWED ( doesn't twist in the leg ). Due to this processing we can accurately know how much our jeans will shrink after home laundering.

 

[migo]

nastya thanks for the tutorial

...I was hoping someone would post some pictures haha.

Thanks to everybody else too...I feel so...enlightened

 

[jandek]

this was an incredibly enlightening thread, thank you for all the info. My question though is, why is this so desirable? Is it for the sake of rarity? Is quality dramatically improved?

 

[Master-Classter]

^^^ right, now you're getting to the interesting part...

 

[Pablo-T]

Originally Posted by Godmother

SELVAGE DENIM is woven on ANTIQUE SHUTTLE LOOMS....most bought from USA in the 80's by the JAPANESE ( smart )....duh....US denim mills decided to sell off all the old looms..except for a handful which Cone Mills still weaves out of their White Oak palnt. Real Selvage never has " frayed edge " and the width of the fabric is about 28-29 inches wide from selvage edge to selvage edge. That is why selvage jeans cost so much....they are all cut along the selvage edge ( the outseam ) and one jean consumes over 3 1/2 yards of denim for one pair of jeans. 5EP denim is woven on antique shuttle looms by one of the oldest textile mills in JAPAN ( est 113 years ago ).
Just for truth's sake. THis is almost totally wrong. The Japanese have one of the most advanced loom industries in the world. Toyoda, later Toyota, invented some of the most innovative looms frm the 20s onwards – they were exported widely and also made under licence. There were therefore thousands of selvage looms in service in Japan, and no need to import any old, heavy and difficult to maintain looms from the US. There are only a few known US looms in Japan, none of which anyone has proven to be used in denim manufacture. All the classic 80s Japanese makers, notably Evis, used fabric from Kurabo, Kaihara, Nisshinbo and Mempo, all of whom use Toyoda looms. I know people who've visited every one of those four mills, none of whom have seen one American loom installed. There is no evidence whatsoever of US looms being used in Japan. I have exchanged correspondence with Yamane on exactly this issue - he initally claims to be using "old Levi's looms", then when interrogated denied he'd made such a claim, and acknoweldged that his early fabric came from Kurabo - who use Toyoda looms for most, if not all, of their denim production The above has become pretty common knowledge over the last five years, and I am starting to feel very suspicious of any manufacturer who claims to use "antique US looms" on their Japanese selvage, because that claim has, in the past, so often been revealed as BS. THe part about all selvage looms being 28inches wide is also incorrect. There are many wide selvage looms around, notably the Draper X3, which is adjustable; from the 50s, in the US, huge amounts of selvage was produced in 42inch width, or more. This is possibly one reason why Lee switched to a single selvage in the 50s, and why visible selvage started to become less common.

 

[archetypal_yuppie]

Another question: What does selvage add?

Answer: Nothing.

 

[mlyngard]

Originally Posted by nastyandy

Okay, here's a little visual guide that explains it better than plain English, and I've included a few brands that I can see confusing to a newb. . .

Nice one nastyandy! My avatar I think might help too ;-)

 

[CharlieAngel]

Originally Posted by archetypal_yuppie

Another question: What does selvage add?

Answer: Nothing.

Functionally? Nothing. Aesthetically? Quite a bit if that's important to you. I happen to like it. It's not the most important thing in my jeans, but if you give me the choice between two otherwise identical jeans, one selvedge, one not, at the same pricepoint, I'll take the selvedge, please.

 

[entrero]

Originally Posted by Pablo-T

Just for truth's sake. THis is almost totally wrong.

The Japanese have one of the most advanced loom industries in the world. Toyoda, later Toyota, invented some of the most innovative looms frm the 20s onwards - they were exported widely and also made under licence. There were therefore thousands of selvage looms in service in Japan, and no need to import any old, heavy and difficult to maintain looms from the US. There are only a few known US looms in Japan, none of which anyone has proven to be used in denim manufacture. All the classic 80s Japanese makers, notably Evis, used fabric from Kurabo, Kaihara, Nisshinbo and Mempo, all of whom use Toyoda looms. I know people who've visited every one of those four mills, none of whom have seen one American loom installed.

There is no evidence whatsoever of US looms being used in Japan. I have exchanged correspondence with Yamane on exactly this issue - he initally claims to be using "old Levi's looms", then when interrogated denied he'd made such a claim, and acknoweldged that his early fabric came from Kurabo - who use Toyoda looms for most, if not all, of their denim production

The above has become pretty common knowledge over the last five years, and I am starting to feel very suspicious of any manufacturer who claims to use "antique US looms" on their Japanese selvage, because that claim has, in the past, so often been revealed as BS.

THe part about all selvage looms being 28inches wide is also incorrect. There are many wide selvage looms around, notably the Draper X3, which is adjustable; from the 50s, in the US, huge amounts of selvage was produced in 42inch width, or more. This is possibly one reason why Lee switched to a single selvage in the 50s, and why visible selvage started to become less common.

Oh oh, denim stocks dropped sharply after Paul T's informative post

 

[archetypal_yuppie]

Originally Posted by CharlieAngel

Functionally? Nothing. Aesthetically? Quite a bit if that's important to you. I happen to like it. It's not the most important thing in my jeans, but if you give me the choice between two otherwise identical jeans, one selvedge, one not, at the same pricepoint, I'll take the selvedge, please.

Sure, if you roll up your cuffs. But I think too many people here think it implies some kind of quality, when in fact it plays no structural or functional role whatsoever in the jeans.

So if one likes it for how it looks, why bother distinguishing real selvage from from fake?

 

[phoenixrecon]

because the real looks better...

also this thread is from 2007...

 

[Wretched]

Excellent explanation Nastyandy. You even covered the questionable examples. Also, thanks for using the macro on your camera. It bug the hell out of me when people post blurry pictures.

 

[bma]

Originally Posted by nastyandy

Okay, here's a little visual guide that explains it better than plain English, and I've included a few brands that I can see confusing to a newb. . .

Selvage (RRL):

NOT selvage (Diesel):

^^Tightly sewn-over edges in bright thread; pretty, but no dice.

Selvage (Nudie):

NOT selvage (Earnest Sewn):

^^notice the dark stitching sewing the edge contrasted by the orange stitching down the center of the edges, from afar it can be deceiving

Selvage (5EP):

^^here's one brand that doesn't use the common white selvage, but notice the fabric edges are continuous from the denim



NOT selvage (Volcom):

^^kinda like Deisel


Selvage (Paul Smith Red Ear):

^^another brand that uses non-white selvage, in fact, as you can see, they use some motley colored material for the selvage edges.

By now, the first poster will hopefully not have any lingering doubts.

this post should defs be in the faq

 

[KitAkira]

FWIW, disregard NA's first picture (from the 3rd post), that's a serge on the left and a taped seam on the right, not selvedge