Sartorial mythbusting

[jefferyd]

Originally Posted by ohm

What do you think the benefits of bespoke are?

My comment wasn't to do with the benefits of bespoke, but the "prerequisites". Manton mentioned a certain seam having to be done by hand in order to ease the fullness in. Yeah, maybe that was true 100 years ago when they wrote the script, but I can show you a machine that will do it even better. At which point the tailor will sniff and mutter that it's not bespoke.........

 

[Manton]

^^^ Would you agree, though, that machines that do lapel pad stitching are inferior to a handstitch?

 

[jefferyd]

Originally Posted by Manton

^^^ Would you agree, though, that machines that do lapel pad stitching are inferior to a handstitch?

Yes for lapels. No for collars.

 

[emptym]

Thanks for this informative discussion, jefferyd, Manton, etc. I have nothing substantive to add other than to suggest that when all forms of the word "stretch" are read, they be read as Jack Black pronounced "stretchy pants" in Nacho Libre.

 

[ohm]

Originally Posted by jefferyd

My comment wasn't to do with the benefits of bespoke, but the "prerequisites". Manton mentioned a certain seam having to be done by hand in order to ease the fullness in. Yeah, maybe that was true 100 years ago when they wrote the script, but I can show you a machine that will do it even better. At which point the tailor will sniff and mutter that it's not bespoke.........

Right, but it seems to logically follow (and I'm not trying to bait anyone I'm just genuinely curious) that if hand tailoring isn't better then one has to justify the added expense in another way. For the record I think there are a number of other ways you can justify it, but here I'm wondering what the interplay looks like between the value added from hand stitching vs. machine (and it seems like you're suggesting that for many things there is none).

Take for example your post on the St. Andrews buttons. You say that's machine button holes gone over by hand is a line you're not willing to cross yet but you also seem to say that they're just objectively better (stronger and more uniform although I acknowledge the issue of whether uniformity is actually better). Why haven't you crossed that particular line and what makes it a line that you're less willing to cross than say the shoulder seam?

Having read my response, maybe I'm misunderstanding you. Are you trying to say (i) bespoke isn't about hand stitching vs. machine, and (ii) machines can provide the same or better function in many situations that used to require hand stitching?

 

[jefferyd]

Originally Posted by ohm

Take for example your post on the St. Andrews buttons. You say that's machine button holes gone over by hand is a line you're not willing to cross yet but you also seem to say that they're just objectively better (stronger and more uniform although I acknowledge the issue of whether uniformity is actually better). Why haven't you crossed that particular line and what makes it a line that you're less willing to cross than say the shoulder seam?

I also went on to admit I was being a stubborn ox on that point for no reason. That and it was a recent discovery for me- I had a long time to digest other parts of the garment.

I grew up in a sewing househould- besides tailoring, members of my family made hats, lace, embroidery, silk flowers, smocking, you name it. I started sewing VERY young but I didn't learn to use an overlock machine until I left home- my mother thought they were for lazy people and wouldn't have one in the house. So even though I have worked in the industry for a long time and my attitudes have shifted, every once in a while I regress.

Originally Posted by ohm

Having read my response, maybe I'm misunderstanding you. Are you trying to say (i) bespoke isn't about hand stitching vs. machine,
I think some definitions of bespoke are too narrow. AFAIC, if you got exactly the suit you requested and it fits properly (there is no such thing as perfection)- is that not bespoke, even though the shoudler seam may or may not have been done by hand?

Originally Posted by ohm

and (ii) machines can provide the same or better function in many situations that used to require hand stitching?
True. But it is also true that a hand-painted reproduction of a masterwork holds more sentimental value than a machine-painted one and in the same sense a hand-crafted garment can have more appeal, even though the mechanical reproduction may be more true to the original.

 

[apropos]

'The handmade bespoke experience' = molto pathos, molto sympathy?

 

[imageWIS]

Originally Posted by Manton

You have got to be kidding. jeffrey, does anyone really claim that an angled shoulder seam increases elasticity? What I have read, and had explained to me by tailors, is that the angle (caused by the small backneck measurement) moves the neckpoint back and down in such a way is to increase the collar's ability to stay on the neck. Also, it allows for extra fullness over the blades, which helps the coat move more freely. Both of these observations are true to my experience. Every coat on which I have had problems with the collar not sticking to the neck have been ones with straighter shoulder seams. All of the coats that I have had with angled seams (and small backnecks) -- whether from London, Italy, or New York -- have stayed glued to the neck at all times.
How much harder is it to manufacture an angled shoulder seam than a straight one? I imagine that the complexity, i.e. cost (RTW or Bespoke) is fairly negligible.

 

[imageWIS]

Originally Posted by whnay.

This thread is nerd. For real....

This thread is what SF used to be like 4 / 5 years ago. I miss this

 

[George]

Originally Posted by jefferyd

I think some definitions of bespoke are too narrow. AFAIC, if you got exactly the suit you requested and it fits properly (there is no such thing as perfection)- is that not bespoke, even though the shoulder seam may or may not have been done by hand?
I'm glad too hear this, especially, coming from a tailor.

 

[Manton]

Originally Posted by imageWIS

How much harder is it to manufacture an angled shoulder seam than a straight one? I imagine that the complexity, i.e. cost (RTW or Bespoke) is fairly negligible.

As far as I know, it's simply a matter of pattern cutting. There is no difference in how it is actually put together.

 

[jefferyd]

Originally Posted by George

I'm glad too hear this, especially, coming from a tailor.
Ah, but I am a notorious populist.

Originally Posted by Manton

As far as I know, it's simply a matter of pattern cutting. There is no difference in how it is actually put together.
Right

 

[voxsartoria]

I thought that "bespoke" was largely a function of the willingness of the seller to use that word in the description of their products?

- B

 

[TheFoo]

I'm as neurotic as the next guy, but the point at which this stuff starts losing my attention is when the information enters the margins with respect to my interests as a client. At the end, a tailor's reliability, attention to fit, and his house style matter to me much more than whether the shoulders of his jackets stretch, and whether that matters.

Put another way, if a tailor (like A&S or Rubinacci, for examples) has a very distinctive house style that resonates with me, and they deliver consistently good results, I would pick him over another tailor who doesn't deliver on the style I want, but who is slightly more technically proficient, as according to orthodoxy.

So, while I don't typically see tailoring as art, per se, I do understand its benefits as stylistic, as well as technical. That's what I don't think so many critics of A&S understand: even if A&S is technically not right with respect to certain established norms, that wrongness may be part and parcel to achieving the A&S style, which people evidently value in and of itself.

 

[imageWIS]

Originally Posted by Manton

As far as I know, it's simply a matter of pattern cutting. There is no difference in how it is actually put together.

Originally Posted by jefferyd

Right

But then why isn't it always done? Wouldn't it be beneficial to the customer without any additional cost to the manufacturer / retailer?