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Riccardo Bestetti Bespoke projects.

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Roy, Jun 23, 2011.

  1. j ingevaldsson

    j ingevaldsson Senior member

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    We all know. But Bestetti and a bunch of other Italians call it Goodyear welted, the reason for it has been discussed twice in this thread already. And if you read the whole buyer's guide you find it discussed there as well.

    I haven't owned a pair of StC myself, but I have visited trunk shows, tried them on and seen friends used pairs, and I have to say that I definitely hold Bestetti Novecento above StC. I think his MTO hand welted will be on pair with St C, If I judge from the MTO-Blake I've seen, and RTW (which use box calf, MTO and Novecento use crust) probably a bit below.

    I agree that today it might be easier to order from StC, but when the shop Spiga 3 launch their online sales of Bestetti in a couple of months time (will sell some RTW as well as take orders for MTO and Novecento) that issue will be fixed. You will be able to pay with credit card, shoes will be finished faster (since shop orders are prioritized above individual driest orders). And if you live in the states, you will be able to deduct the high Swedish VAT of 25% from the prices above, and it's shipped with Swedish Postal service who gives it to USPS which when Skoaktiebolaget uses it almost never end up with custom dutys. That will be a pretty darn sweet deal if you ask me.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2014
    1 person likes this.
  2. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    FTFY

    And 100% pB is correct...regardless of the conventions. The conventions are ignorant...GY is GY and HW is HW.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2014
  3. j ingevaldsson

    j ingevaldsson Senior member

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    Of course. But if you are to order a shoe from a maker, I'd say it's easier to use the words he is using for things to avoid confusion in the ordering process.
     
  4. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    I agree that it's certainly wise to make sure that you both know what you're talking about.

    That said, it's just another form of "dumbing down."
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2014
  5. cgo

    cgo Senior member

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    And dont forget that Bestetti also includes test shoes (at least from the Novecento line).....StC does not
     
  6. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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    IMO, its best to respect dictions at different localities.
     
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  7. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Well, IMO it's better to respect the language and the Traditions...which could be, should be, universal...rather than associating good work with inferior.

    Next thing you know, cobblers are shoemakers and shoemakers, cobblers. :facepalm:

    Besides this "locality" isn't there.

    --
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2014
  8. wurger

    wurger Senior member

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    In our case, we all understand that Bestetti does blake and hand welt.
     
  9. TheWraith

    TheWraith Senior member

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    +1
     
  10. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Does he use a blake stitch machine for this blake construction? :devil:
     
  11. j ingevaldsson

    j ingevaldsson Senior member

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    Since you can do blake stitch completely by hand, we can't be sure... :)
     
  12. Gianni Cerutti

    Gianni Cerutti Senior member

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    It was exactly the color that you see in the picture. And for me it's great. In fact, the only problem is the cost. Because if I look at what I like I'd do 10 at a time of shoes and colors Bestetti. But I can not! And I can not wait to show the other phases of my bespoke gladiators.
     
  13. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    You can do something that looks like Blake by hand but it is not called Blake.

    Blake stitching is named after Lyman Reed Blake, who invented the machine which later became known as the McKay stitcher--named after Gordon McKay who bought the patent from Blake and perfected the machine.

    If it was done by hand, it would be "channel stitched" or "pump stitched" but not Blake, simply because Blake is always a machine stitch....just as Goodyear is always a machine stitch.

    I call all this a "dumbing down" simply because both channel stitching and hand welting predate Blake and Goodyear respectively by a considerable amount of time. They also require a great deal more time and energy and dedication from the maker.

    Why is it we feel the need to disparage the older, more praiseworthy techniques by re-naming and associating them with expedient, soulless and generally inferior techniques?

    Is it because in this era we've so lost our own sense of what it is to be human that we cannot relate to anything that reminds us that there are people who pursue objectives that have nothing to do with hurry-up and profit?
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2014
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  14. j ingevaldsson

    j ingevaldsson Senior member

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    It was a joke. I know it's not called blake stitching when it's done by hand.

    For what it's worth, I agree with you that it is a bit of a shame that Goodyear has become so synonymous with quality that some prefer to call it Goodeyar welted even if it's hand welted, and that it's mixed up. In Sweden the only term that normally was used was "randsydd" (welted), for both hand welted and Goodyear welted. You never made a distinction between the two construction methods. Since I didn't think that just welted is a good description I started using "handrandsydd" (hand welted) and "Goodyear-randsydd" (Goodyear welted) to have more accurate descriptions, and not bunch it up in the same one. Since my blog is pretty influential here in Sweden, nowadays it's much more common that other people also use "handrandsydd" or "Goodyear-randsydd" instead of just "randsydd". I think that's a good thing.

    But, since Bestetti call his hand welted shoes Goodyear welted, I wrote it in the buyer's guide (with a note about the wrong use of the word) so that things wouldn't risk being confused in the contact with him.
     
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  15. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    :fonz:

    In my mind, and those who really know...yourself included, presumably...I'm not so sure that GY is synonymous with quality. Rather that most consumers having bought into the public relations hype don't know...or care to know...what constitutes real quality.

    We had a similar discussion in another thread in which MoneyWellSpent showed pretty conclusively that, almost without exception, most high end RTW makers deliberately (?) deceive the public by promoting Goodyear as the best quality to be had.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2014
  16. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    ^I had a coworker recently explain the superiority of his Allen Edmonds to me because of the welt and cork filler. I played dumb, but I was burning up inside.
     
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  17. j ingevaldsson

    j ingevaldsson Senior member

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    Yes, recognize this as well. Shoe store sellers who talk about "the progression" that the Goodyear welted technique meant and that it is "the ultimate way to make a shoe", and so forth. And I know just how it was for myself, when I started to gain interest in quality shoes a bunch of years ago I too believed that Goodyear was the best that there was, cause that's what the companies and most I came in contact with was telling me. It was first when I dug deeper into the shoe world that I realized that I've been fooled. But most people (SF-members aren't most people) never get to know this.
     
  18. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    This is exactly why something that seems so "petty" to some, is actually so important.

    When we don't make the distinctions with our language, when we don't acknowledge the differences and the superiority of handwelted, etc....it all gets muddied. The very idea of quality becomes muddied and amorphous and confused.

    And as a result, even if only unwittingly, we become pawns for (and of) the public relations firms...we do their dirty work for them--promoting Goodyear as "the ultimate way to make a shoe."

    We...some of us...are in a privileged position here on SF. We have access, we have knowledge available to us, if we but ask for it. But many who come and who post here either don't have that knowledge or deliberately reject it.

    And those who know and don't care, aren't buying shoes because they are interested or seeking quality. Those who reject the knowledge, simply don't have the ability to recognize quality. Many use price or brand name as a shortcut/substitute for the time and energy needed to train their own sensibilities...or simply to learn.

    All that's left in those circumstances is pretense. Posing. Strutting and braggadocio.

    PS...none of this associates with Recardo Bestetti who is, by every measure, a fine, diligent bespoke shoemaker who just happens to be using incorrect and confusing terminology. (And if it wasn't confusing, we wouldn't be having this discussion.)

    --
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2014
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  19. PCK1

    PCK1 Senior member

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    Frankly, I could care less what he calls it...

    His shoes are clearly top notch in every single way from construction to design.

    God damn they are so sexy [​IMG]
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. Gianni Cerutti

    Gianni Cerutti Senior member

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    Reading these words today Bestetti called me and asked if I could bring back a thought. And since I think it is very useful at all for these comments, I decided to bring back what I said. And he called me because being a customer there can be no interference Italian language

    Here are the words of Bestetti:

    @thank you for your words, I'm sorry I was wrong to write, the terminology is wrong, in Italy you would normally use, but it is wrong. I personally, shoes NOT DO THE WORK IN GOODYEAR, but in processing HAND welted. I apologize to the readers of this forum, for the error. personally I do not like working good year, I find it too hard, I prefer the flexibility of working hand welted".
     
    3 people like this.

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