Removing your hat indoors

[Harold falcon]

Originally Posted by cptjeff

So does the reason behind the belief actually matter? The orthodox jew may have come to that belief through religion, I may have come to it by a completely different route, but the end result is exactly the same.

Except you didn't "come to it". You don't believe it. The Jewish fellow actually believes he has to wear the hat. You're just doing it to be an ass.

 

[mordecai]

I once read an ethnography about a tribe in Argentina. The women wear a tiny piece of fabric wrapped around their waist but are otherwise exposed. If the piece of fabric falls however, they become very embarrassed and try to cover parts of their bodies that the fabric did not actually cover.

In any event, it's cute when people take a stand against some social convention.

 

[Working Stiff]

I like your posts, Mordecai.

 

[cptjeff]

Originally Posted by harvey_birdman

Except you didn't "come to it". You don't believe it. The Jewish fellow actually believes he has to wear the hat. You're just doing it to be an ass.
No, I'm doing it because I'm happy enough wearing my hat and see no need to screw with it. I'm not trying to be an ass, I'm just wearing my clothes the way I like to wear them. Your perception of me as an ass is, unless proved by conversation, entirely in your mind. There is no reason for that perception except that you were trained to have it. There is no reason for the rule except that it's conditioned into people. It is that automatic perception, based on absolutely nothing rationally defenable, that I have a problem with. Hat etiquette, as such, is largely dead because the boomers stopped wearing them, and as an accidental corollary to that, stopped perpetuating many of those conventions. The rules do not exist for any reason apart from momentum, and that they are trained. If that training stops, then they cease to exist. If there is a good reason for the rule, it will be rediscovered by those who never learned it. If there isn't a good reason, then that won't happen.

 

[PeterMetro]

Originally Posted by caxt

Something I find interesting is how many here who consider wearing a hat indoors to be bad etiquette, feel perfectly at ease asking others to remove their hats - a far more serious breach in my understanding.

+1

 

[mordecai]

Originally Posted by cptjeff

Hat etiquette, as such, is largely dead because the boomers stopped wearing them, and as an accidental corollary to that, stopped perpetuating many of those conventions. The rules do not exist for any reason apart from momentum, and that they are trained. If that training stops, then they cease to exist. If there is a good reason for the rule, it will be rediscovered by those who never learned it. If there isn't a good reason, then that won't happen.
My dad had triple bypass accidental corollary after his divorce, and never quite recovered

 

[Harold falcon]

Originally Posted by cptjeff

No, I'm doing it because I'm happy enough wearing my hat and see no need to screw with it. I'm not trying to be an ass, I'm just wearing my clothes the way I like to wear them.

Your perception of me as an ass is, unless proved by conversation, entirely in your mind. There is no reason for that perception except that you were trained to have it. There is no reason for the rule except that it's conditioned into people.

Hat etiquette, as such, is largely dead because the boomers stopped wearing them, and as an accidental corollary to that, stopped perpetuating many of those conventions. The rules do not exist for any reason apart from momentum, and that they are trained. If that training stops, then they cease to exist. If there is a good reason for the rule, it will be rediscovered by those who never learned it. If there isn't a good reason, then that won't happen.

That's fine, but don't pretend you have to wear the hat for religious reasons. You don't.

 

[Working Stiff]

Originally Posted by cptjeff

Your perception of me as an ass is, unless proved by conversation, entirely in your mind. There is no reason for that perception except that you were trained to have it. There is no reason for the rule except that it's conditioned into people. It is that automatic perception, based on absolutely nothing rationally defenable, that I have a problem with.

It's a bit rich, at this point in the conversation, for you to suggest that there's no reason for people to think that you're an ass.

 

[cptjeff]

Originally Posted by harvey_birdman

That's fine, but don't pretend you have to wear the hat for religious reasons. You don't.

I never claim to. The focus on that question was supposed to be why it's such an issue if people have small variances in their social values, even differences much smaller then those with other commonly accepted sets of values. The fake religious reason was supposed to be an example of an hypothetical, offbeat, not quite as widely accepted basis for a value set, but with a less extreme result then a commonly accepted basis.

It was not phrased as well as it could have been.

 

[cptjeff]

Originally Posted by Working Stiff

It's a bit rich, at this point in the conversation, for you to suggest that there's no reason for people to think that you're an ass.


When you challenge people's values, even if they have no idea why they hold those values, people often get defensive. When they can find no logical support for those values, often they become more so. In that mindset, they're going to take just about anything personally. and they're going to respond in kind. And it escalates. Words and phrasing gets blunter to try and penetrate through defensive shells. People on the defensive react badly. Everyone comes out looking like an ass.

When people hold onto a value for ages, even if based on nothing they're predisposed to resist any admission that it might be wrong. They subconsciously fear that time holding onto it might have been wasted, and it requires admitting that they were wrong. And despite all the talk about keeping an open mind, that's hard to do for most people, especially with stuff their parents taught them, since that would also involve admitting that the people they trusted most were also wrong.

So to get an idea through, sometimes you have to be blunt. I can deal with being thought an asshole online if I feel that I've at least gotten a decent argument hammered in there.

 

[Working Stiff]

Originally Posted by cptjeff

When you challenge people's values, even if they have no idea why they hold those values, people often get defensive. When they can find no logical support for those values, often they become more so. In that mindset, they're going to take just about anything personally. and they're going to respond in kind. And it escalates. Words and phrasing gets blunter to try and penetrate through defensive shells. People on the defensive react badly. Everyone comes out looking like an ass.

When people hold onto a value for ages, even if based on nothing they're predisposed to resist any admission that it might be wrong. They subconsciously fear that time holding onto it might have been wasted, and it requires admitting that they were wrong. And despite all the talk about keeping an open mind, that's hard to do for most people, especially with stuff their parents taught them, since that would also involve admitting that the people they trusted most were also wrong.

So to get an idea through, sometimes you have to be blunt. I can deal with being thought an asshole online if I feel that I've at least gotten a decent argument hammered in there.

You're not challenging anyone's values. Taking your hat off is obviously just a social norm. It's not, in and of itself, right or wrong. Peole are defending it because having some social norms is what allows us to live in a civilzation. You seem to think that you are a crusader on behalf of Truth and Justice, and people are telling you to GTFO.

 

[Just_Hilts]

Always. I feel self conscious wearing a hat indoors.

 

[lefty]

There's a fellow at St. Patrick's on Fifth Ave. whose job is to stand at the door and tell men to take off their hats, caps and toques when the enter the cathedral. He doesn't ask them; he tells them. Most guys politely comply as they had no idea they shouldn't wear a hat in a church. Occasionally, a dumb kid will argue or refuse and leave. If you can't understand that there are situations where out of respect, courtesy, reverence or decorum, a man should act in a certain way, there's little I can do to convince you otherwise. So I'll just keep posting silly youtube clips until I get bored.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: No media files are hosted on these forums. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website. We can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. If the video does not play, wait a minute or try again later. I AGREE

TIP: to embed Youtube clips, put only the encoded part of the Youtube URL, e.g. eBGIQ7ZuuiU between the tags. lefty

 

[Dakota rube]

Originally Posted by cptjeff

Basically, I don't like dickishness about stupid rules that exist for no good reason.

So, you just like plain old dickishness? You seem accomplished at it.

Originally Posted by cptjeff

I'm not trying to be an ass...

Yes you are. And again, you seem quite accomplished.

 

[Mr. White]

..