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Razele

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I don't think he thinks they are obselete, just not good design, I sorta see them more as design houses rather then a designers line, they tend to operate within the houses historical context not for the designers aesthetic vision so much. Which is why they (Lanvin / Prorsum) get labelled as being too same same each season. Jil is different, in some ways. Jil by Raf is pretty different and its sorta like Dior Homme in some stores, were they just stock the non-runway items (tailor made line etc \\ bee shirts, raw denim, staple bombers etc).

Places that stock Jil and Dior in Aus do this, for the asian students.
 

brad-t

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Originally Posted by BB1
I have a theory. Popular media has been demonizing polyester for quite a few years now. It has become commonplace in both print and TV (especially those makeover type shows on TLC) to attack man made fabrics as a symbol of "cheap" clothing. This continually pumped mantra has been so overwhelmingly successful that most upper middle income white people have come to collectively believe this.

While it may be true that most cheap clothing is made of cheap polyester fabric, that so many here are willing to misapply this same logic to Lanvin's pieces demonstrates just how successful the propaganda against man made fabrics has been.


I remember falling for this **** ages ago but I got over it. Synthetic fabrics all vary greatly in their quality and price depending on the processing.
 

hendrix

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Originally Posted by Razele
I don't think he thinks they are obselete, just not good design, I sorta see them more as design houses rather then a designers line, they tend to operate within the houses historical context not for the designers aesthetic vision so much..

yeah this is what i was getting at.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, it just means they're somewhere different on the spectrum of Designer-Technician.
 

Razele

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Originally Posted by hendrix
yeah this is what i was getting at.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, it just means they're somewhere different on the spectrum of Designer-Technician.

Nah, it's the context of the design man, technical tailoring and creative design have little to no overlap IMO, they are separate aspects of creating 'clothes'. What I mean is that when your Rick Owens your creative vision is as you see it, you create as you please, you have control (for the most part) of what your selling and your customers relationship with you. When your CCP you don't even have to do two seasons a year. (Or even one every year
laugh.gif
) Didnt Heidi leave Dior because they started to commercialize his line heaps and tell him what he had to do for more sales ala the rumoured Dior Homme Womens line? Look what happened to Raf, as Kunk put it perfectly. The houses have alot of say over thier lines, some have stronger then others obviously. I'm not sayin that one is better then the other when it comes to individual pieces or your personal aesthetic, but more from the 'clothes as art' perspective. Would be interesting to hear others take on this.
 

dtmt

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How do the wjk shirts fit? Are they the typical Japanese cut with really narrow shoulders?
 

sipang

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This whole debate about polyester comes from nowhere.

For the record, Fuuma never said that man made fabrics were inherently of lower quality, he was just calling SQ4you out for saying Lanvin had better fabrics than the majority of high-end japanese labels. For some reason, SQ then went off tangent about how nylon can be good too blahblahblah (which I'm pretty sure everyone agrees on) and totally missed the point.

About the designer thing, a bunch of awesome individual pieces are not enough to make someone the best designer currently working.
 

Fuuma

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Originally Posted by sipang
This whole debate about polyester comes from nowhere. For the record, Fuuma never said that man made fabrics were inherently of lower quality, he was just calling SQ4you out for saying Lanvin had better fabrics than the majority of high-end japanese labels. For some reason, SQ then went off tangent about how nylon can be good too blahblahblah (which I'm pretty sure everyone agrees on) and totally missed the point. About the designer thing, a bunch of awesome individual pieces are not enough to make someone the best designer currently working.
Exactly, SQ4 swatted aside criticism of this specific jacket and referred to its higher quality fabric, having handled the jacket myself I can tell you the fabric, while a good choice for the piece, is some inexpensive polyester. I own a Lanvin polyester jacket with ruched seams myself, it is even lighter than the jacket discussed now so no synthetic hate for me. BTW while the use of tech fabric has often been somewhat inventive at Lanvin it came from a need to cut costs due the economic environment. There's a good reason many of the bigger pieces aren't produced each season. As for the sizing comment I usually wear my own size in Lanvin however I fit a 48 in this particular jacket. And I have absolutely no qualms about pointing out that Rick Owens quality control is mediocre at best and that sizing is lame. Quality of the leather used has also been going down. Lanvin started out as an interesting brand (I mean the recent men's line) with those whole dereliction of an initial preciousness, rent-boy aesthetic, the gradual inclusion of female shapes-the A shape coat and Kimono sleeves trench were highlights- and the washed materials. Now it's an orgy of zippers, excessive ornamentation, so-so fabric (granted prices went down but my friend and I were wearing some of our old pieces while walking around the boutique and the contrast was striking). I still appreciate the raw seams but it's a brand that started fresh and in synch with a certain social current, then went stale and is now failing to reinvent itself. As for Raf I've seen comments as to him being constrained by the big bad brand environment but he's expressed himself several times about how he wants to attain a more grownup aesthetic; dunno what's grownup about the crap he releases but it is definitely bad. He had a couple of hits on the women JS side but they were very much indebted to Jil Sander herself and gave the nostalgic a taste of the 90s impeccably dressed ice-queen.
 

Fuuma

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Originally Posted by Razele
Nah, it's the context of the design man, technical tailoring and creative design have little to no overlap IMO, they are separate aspects of creating 'clothes'.

What I mean is that when your Rick Owens your creative vision is as you see it, you create as you please, you have control (for the most part) of what your selling and your customers relationship with you. When your CCP you don't even have to do two seasons a year. (Or even one every year
laugh.gif
)

Didnt Heidi leave Dior because they started to commercialize his line heaps and tell him what he had to do for more sales ala the rumoured Dior Homme Womens line? Look what happened to Raf, as Kunk put it perfectly. The houses have alot of say over thier lines, some have stronger then others obviously. I'm not sayin that one is better then the other when it comes to individual pieces or your personal aesthetic, but more from the 'clothes as art' perspective.

Would be interesting to hear others take on this.


Not sure what you're talking about but there was a series of pieces made in women sizes, the p (for petite) DH sizes. Hedi was the one who was interested in designing for women btw...
 

the shah

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Originally Posted by Fuuma
As for Raf I've seen comments as to him being constrained by the big bad brand environment but he's expressed himself several times about how he wants to attain a more grownup aesthetic; dunno what's grownup about the crap he releases but it is definitely bad. He had a couple of hits on the women JS side but they were very much indebted to Jil Sander herself and gave the nostalgic a taste of the 90s impeccably dressed ice-queen.

we can even pinpoint the exact moment this happened:

"Simons writes about this [FW08] collection, 'The whole idea of this collection is to work on the body, which is that of a young boy on its journey to grow into that of a mature man - and to capture the budding spirit in between'"

Fortunately my suit is from SS08
laugh.gif
 

Razele

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Originally Posted by Fuuma
Not sure what you're talking about but there was a series of pieces made in women sizes, the p (for petite) DH sizes. Hedi was the one who was interested in designing for women btw...
Oh really? I read an article that was postulating why he left and there was a discussion on SuFu I read and they postulated that. Your probably the better source anyway. Ah well.
 

sq4you

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Originally Posted by RFX45
Any pic of the leather version?
I've probably seen it but I can't remember.

will PM.

Originally Posted by Fuuma
Originally Posted by sq4you
comparing lanvin to midmarket japanese brands is like comparing a bugati to a honda. better tailoring + fabrics than the majority high-end japanese labels too.

Dude that particular jacket is unlined and made of polyester...

It is very nicely cut (although the sizing is off-they fit one size too small) and the trims and raw edges are nice, however it suffers from Lanvin overdesign. Jil Sander by Raf Simons (for men) is one of the most irrelevant label ever. Lanvin has been pretty weak for a while. At least you didn't pick the complete suckage that is Prorsum.


Originally Posted by Fuuma
Exactly, SQ4 swatted aside criticism of this specific jacket and referred to its higher quality fabric, having handled the jacket myself I can tell you the fabric, while a good choice for the piece, is some inexpensive polyester. I own a Lanvin polyester jacket with ruched seams myself, it is even lighter than the jacket discussed now so no synthetic hate for me. BTW while the use of tech fabric has often been somewhat inventive at Lanvin it came from a need to cut costs due the economic environment. There's a good reason many of the bigger pieces aren't produced each season.

As for the sizing comment I usually wear my own size in Lanvin however I fit a 48 in this particular jacket. And I have absolutely no qualms about pointing out that Rick Owens quality control is mediocre at best and that sizing is lame. Quality of the leather used has also been going down.

Lanvin started out as an interesting brand (I mean the recent men's line) with those whole dereliction of an initial preciousness, rent-boy aesthetic, the gradual inclusion of female shapes-the A shape coat and Kimono sleeves trench were highlights- and the washed materials. Now it's an orgy of zippers, excessive ornamentation, so-so fabric (granted prices went down but my friend and I were wearing some of our old pieces while walking around the boutique and the contrast was striking). I still appreciate the raw seams but it's a brand that started fresh and in synch with a certain social current, then went stale and is now failing to reinvent itself.

As for Raf I've seen comments as to him being constrained by the big bad brand environment but he's expressed himself several times about how he wants to attain a more grownup aesthetic; dunno what's grownup about the crap he releases but it is definitely bad. He had a couple of hits on the women JS side but they were very much indebted to Jil Sander herself and gave the nostalgic a taste of the 90s impeccably dressed ice-queen.


as you can see from my comment, i made a general comment about lanvin fabrics and construction.. not this specific jacket which i posted in RP. however, as evidenced, this jacket was available in multiple interesting fabrics.

you said this specific jacket is unlined and made of nylon....insinuating both of those things are somehow bad. i refuted this. i didn't say this jacket was an example of the luxurious fabrics lanvin is known for.

the overall decrease in glamourous materials is prevalent across essentially all brands. people simply are buying less and aren't willing to pay what they used to for clothing. personally, I would discriminate against a brand like RO more for charging exorbitant prices while knowingly maintaining shoddy quality.
 

Razele

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Isn't luxury sales up year on year in good single / double digit numbers?

I always put the blame at commodity price increases for that sort of thing. Cottons explosive growth is going to mess with your costs bigtime. Would be interesting to see if people are buying less mainline.
 

aether

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Originally Posted by hurhur
Was about to order a TOJ band collar, but ended up with buying a Attachment band collar instead. Attachment Grey Goatskin Band Collar Leather
2wcfwxe.jpg
2qcgob4.jpg

fukin sick man. nice buy. I like the waist tabs. how much?
 

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