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Received my c&j seymours today

AJL

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First of all, thanks to norcaltransplant who got them to me in world record time: purchased on Friday, shipped on Saturday, received today.

They are beautiful shoes, but they're so damn small (I suspect Alias may not be heartbroken at this news). Here's the thing: the Savile's I have in 7E U.K. I find extremely roomy in the forefoot/ toebox, almost to the point of excess. The Seymours, which are marked 7D--US, I am led to believe, and I see no reason to doubt this--are extremely tight in the forefoot, almost to the point of discomfort. In total length there is less than 1/4" difference between them, but the difference in width is like night and day, like a full size (if not two), rather than 1/2.

What gives? Is the English "E" that much wider than the US "D", or the difference between 7 (U.S.) & 7.5 (U.K.) that great in terms of width? Is it possible that the the 7D US is actually the equivalent of the 6E U.K., and not 6.5? Also, could there be that much (if any) difference between the Seymour & Savile fit, given that both are stitched on the 337 last? Could I possibly ask any more questions regarding a single pair of shoes...?

Any clarity in regards to any of the above would be most appreciated.

Thanks,
AJL
 

Alias

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I remember Mr. Doshi from Plal advising me that the fit of C&J Handgrades run a bit snug. I wear a perfect size 7D American, according to the Brannock Device, and Mr. Doshi advised me to wear a 6.5E UK, for my Audleys, also on the 337 last. They fit me very well.

If anything, a 7E UK Savile should run a 7.5D US... which would account for the discomfort you're getting while trying to wear size 7D Seymours.
 

A Harris

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I see two possibilities, either Barney's requested that they be marked with an equivalent US size, or they are mismarked. Anyhow, sounds like they do not fit, so I advise selling them before you try and wear them, you'll get more money that way.
 

Lomezz

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Further to what A Harris said, and based on speaking with a Barney's salesperson, Barney's do have their C&Js marked with equivalent US width sizes, such that the standard UK "E" is marked "D" in the US. I couldn't gather whether the length is also marked in US equivalent or is it the UK original.

That said, the 337 last runs very snug in the toe box.
 

AJL

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I am now beginning to wonder whether the Savile's I received from Mr. Doshi @ P. Lal were in fact mismarked, rather than the Barney's shoes. I had heard previously how snug the fit of the 337 last was, yet when I received my 7E Savile's I was surprised by how much room there was. And now with the 7D Seymour's I can relate to that "sense of snug". I wonder if its possible the Savile's are actually an "F" width, rather than "E"...?

The disparity in  sizing between the two pairs is dramatic to say the least. With the Seymour's my toes are fairly well compressed into the shoe, both on the sides (particularly the outside) and on top; there is little to no wiggle room. The Savile's on the other hand are roomy to the point that there is actually excess leather at the forefoot that I can practically pinch. There is definitely measurable space between my foot and the Savile's both on top and the sides. Does it seem possible that there is only 1/2 size difference between the 2 shoes, based on my description?

I think I shall drop Mr. Doshi a line, and see if he has any insight on the matter. He does monitor these boards by the way, so its possible he has already picked up on this thread (he anticipated an email from me several weeks ago, having read about some sizing issues I'd mentioned here regarding a couple pairs of C&J benchgrades I'd gotten from him).

FLASH: Just took some measurements and the outsoles of the Saviles measure 11 5/8" in length and 4 1/8" in width at the widest point. The Seymours measure 11 1/2" in length, and just a hair less than 4 1/8" in width. So far so good, you say. Ah, but I just now laid each shoe down on a flat surface at eye level and here is where the real difference is apparent. At the inside edge, the height of the forefoot (not sure of the technical term, but it is the area just in front of the ball of the foot) of each shoe appears to be about the same. At the corresponding outside edge however, there is a dramatic difference: the Savile looks to be at least 1 1/2" high from the top of the sole, while the Seymour looks to be about 1 " high, if that. The Savile outside edge appears almost vertical like a wall, while the Seymour's is narrow and tapered.  Viewed from this angle they look almost like a different last, and the way each shoe fits seems to correspond to this visual aspect. What gives??

Sorry for the lengthy & obsessive post, I'm just trying to get a handle on why these shoes are so dramatically different. I appreciate any input from you shoeflys out there.

AJL
 

shoefan

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Certainly sounds a bit strange, given that both shoes are (purportedly) made on the same last.  If they have the same last, they should have the same profile, as opposed to the difference you note.  Thinking about the problem, my take is that perhaps the tighter shoe was made in a way that somehow stretched the upper too tight over the last, such that it contracted along the outside of the shoe after removal from the last; this contraction would reduce the dimension of the shoe around the outside of the foot, leading to the lower profile in the forefoot area.  (Or the last was somehow different, with a lower profile on the outside region.)  

As mentioned by Alias, the 7E UK is more like a 7.5D US; note that a 7.5D US is wider than a 7D US, as width (really circumference) increases as as size increases.
 

AJL

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Certainly sounds a bit strange, given that both shoes are (purportedly) made on the same last.  If they have the same last, they should have the same profile, as opposed to the difference you note.  Thinking about the problem, my take is that perhaps the tighter shoe was made in a way that somehow stretched the upper too tight over the last, such that it contracted along the outside of the shoe after removal from the last; this contraction would reduce the dimension of the shoe around the outside of the foot, leading to the lower profile in the forefoot area.  (Or the last was somehow different, with a lower profile on the outside region.)  

As mentioned by Alias, the 7E UK is more like a 7.5D US; note that a 7.5D US is wider than a 7D US, as width (really circumference) increases as as size increases.
I am aware that as the size increases, so does the circumference; it's just that 1/2" or more of increased circumference seems like a lot for just a 1/2 size increment.

Also, I should point out somewhat sheepishly, that as I took visual assessment of both shoes, the Savile had a cedar shoe tree in it (doh...). Removing it didn't really alter the appearance that much, though it did lessen that "vertical effect" of the outside edge, causing the shape of the two shoes to appear more alike.  The disparity in overall size/height however, remains.
 

Alias

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Ok, I think I got the hang of it:

Considering Handgrade sizing, going again by Mr. Doshi's recommendation, it is best to consider the UK size to be -.5 than the US size, width E UK = width D US. 7.5E UK = 8D US, 6.5E UK = 7D US, and so on.

Sounds like the store you bought the Seymours from didn't account for this, and subtracted an entire 1 instead of .5, leading you to believe that the shoes were bigger than they actually are. Sounds like these Seymours are 6E UK, a size even too small for me if I go by what Mr. Doshi told me. I'll go and check on my Audleys again and see if I can afford the squeeze.
 

dah328

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Considering Handgrade sizing, going again by Mr. Doshi's recommendation, it is best to consider the UK size to be -.5 than the US size, width E UK = width D US. 7.5E UK = 7D US, 7D US = 6.5 UK, and so on.
Don't you mean 7.5E UK = 8D US?

Sounds like the store you bought the Seymours from didn't account for this, and subtracted an entire 1 instead of .5, leading you to believe that the shoes were bigger than they actually are.
I don't think Barney's had it wrong.  I was fortunate enough to get the Seymours listed as 7.5D US.  When I initially tried them on, they seemed a little loose (they feel much better after a few wearings), so I tried on the pair they had listed as a 7D US which is now in AJL's possession.  That pair was definitely too small and it was most notable in the width of the shoe. Since I found the Seymour in 7D US significantly narrower than the 7.5D US, I'm not real surprised that AJL finds a 7D US significantly narrower than a 7E UK.

FWIW, if the shoes aren't _real_ bad, stretching can help.  Although I'd cringe to do it on a pair of C&Js, I did it on a pair of Cole Haans with respectable results.  Plal claims up to a full "letter" increase in width is possible.

Regards,

dan
 

Alias

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Oh yeah, duh. I'm currently on a pretty strong regimen of antibiotics with nothing but gruel in my stomach to fuel my body (this is what serious dental surgery will do to you, folks.) I corrected my post.
 

AJL

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I don't think Barney's had it wrong.  I was fortunate enough to get the Seymours listed as 7.5D US.  When I initially tried them on, they seemed a little loose (they feel much better after a few wearings), so I tried on the pair they had listed as a 7D US which is now in AJL's possession.  That pair was definitely too small and it was most notable in the width of the shoe.  Since I found the Seymour in 7D US significantly narrower than the 7.5D US, I'm not real surprised that AJL finds a 7D US significantly narrower than a 7E UK.

FWIW, if the shoes aren't _real_ bad, stretching can help.  Although I'd cringe to do it on a pair of C&Js, I did it on a pair of Cole Haans with respectable results.  Plal claims up to a full "letter" increase in width is possible.

Regards,

dan
dan,
Sounds like your experience from 7 to 7.5 is similar to mine (in my case w/ with Seymour & Savile). Did the 1/2 size difference between the 2 not seem a bit extreme to you ?

btw, I did drop a line to Mr. Doshi of P. Lal tonight regarding this subject, and shall await and convey his response to y'all once it is forthcoming (Alias, I know you hear me knockin' bro...)
 

dah328

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dan,
Sounds like your experience from 7 to 7.5 is similar to mine (in my case w/ with Seymour & Savile). Did the 1/2 size difference between the 2 not seem a bit extreme to you ?
There was a surprising difference between the two and it was clear that the 7D US was too small for me.  One should also take my very qualitative statement with an appropriate grain of salt as my experience with quality shoes is very limited.

dan
 

Alias

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(Alias, I know you hear me knockin' bro...)
I just landed a job as a bookkeeper, so I'll be both happy and able to take those Seymours off your hands.
 

AJL

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(AJL @ 25 Aug. 2004, 6:15) (Alias, I know you hear me knockin' bro...)
I just landed a job as a bookkeeper, so I'll be both happy and able to take those Seymours off your hands.

sent you a PM...
 

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