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Rant: Modern Burberry is Crap

dieworkwear

Mahatma Jawndi
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Were you talking about younger men wearing CM, or CM's reception among GenZ in general? I thought it was the latter - appreciation for classic style is very much there today, but plenty of men who wish to sport it are still moral cowards about their personal style.

I think this is essentially a difference geographical. Where I am, you don't see anything like that at all.
I don't think GenZ thinks about CM at all. It's not even on the radar. To the degree that is on the radar -- like Ivy Style stuff -- I agree that it's broadly associated with racism, classism, homophobia, etc. That's because a lot of CM is associated with political conservatives and has been since the 1950s.

There was a story recently about how GenZ canceled side parts and skinny jeans on TikTok. The big reason is that both those things are associated with old people (Millenials and older). Some zoomers also said that side parts are associated with Republicans, and middle parts are associated with Democrats. I assume not everyone hates side parts because of that, but it gives you a glimpse of the broad associations and that generation's political leanings.

Don't think CM style is relevant to GenZ at all, although some brands are trying to make headway, like Noah. Although, questionable whether Noah and ALD can be considered CM.
 

Nobilis Animus

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I don't think GenZ thinks about CM at all. It's not even on the radar. To the degree that is on the radar -- like Ivy Style stuff -- I agree that it's broadly associated with racism, classism, homophobia, etc. That's because a lot of CM is associated with political conservatives and has been since the 1950s.

There was a story recently about how GenZ canceled side parts and skinny jeans on TikTok. The big reason is that both those things are associated with old people (Millenials and older). Some zoomers also said that side parts are associated with Republicans, and middle parts are associated with Democrats. I assume not everyone hates side parts because of that, but it gives you a glimpse of the broad associations and that generation's political leanings.

Don't think CM style is relevant to GenZ at all, although some brands are trying to make headway, like Noah. Although, questionable whether Noah and ALD can be considered CM.
Fair point, but I also think it's difficult to generalize on the basis of politics. It seems to me that most who go looking for political meaning in people's choices tend to find it.

I can only speak from my experience, and what I've found is that while people's personal styles will vary considerably, interest in and appreciation for classic styles is more prevalent among people younger than 30 than one might expect. I say classic styles because I'm not talking about the kind of rigidly-defined boundaries of CM clothing on this site, but classic pieces of clothing and overall silhouettes. You'd be surprised how many people, young people too, will shop around for fancy, interesting clothes to wear for going out in the evenings, or choose overcoats instead of parkas and puffy jackets when it gets cold. Or wish they could afford to do so.

In my own circles, this type of clothing is not denigrated for political reasons, and some of the most liberally-minded people I know are also some of the best-dressers, classically speaking (if you ascribe anti-conservative ideas to liberalism, which is not the case in Canada). I'm sure some other styles are more popular in the generation on the whole, but I haven't found that anyone associates classic, Western clothing with anything negative or retro-gradient automatically. In fact, I've heard it more commonly expressed by those who fear what others might think of their own style.
 

dieworkwear

Mahatma Jawndi
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Fair point, but I also think it's difficult to generalize on the basis of politics. It seems to me that most who go looking for political meaning in people's choices tend to find it.

I can only speak from my experience, and what I've found is that while people's personal styles will vary considerably, interest in and appreciation for classic styles is more prevalent among people younger than 30 than one might expect. I say classic styles because I'm not talking about the kind of rigidly-defined boundaries of CM clothing on this site, but classic pieces of clothing and overall silhouettes. You'd be surprised how many people, young people too, will shop around for fancy, interesting clothes to wear for going out in the evenings, or choose overcoats instead of parkas and puffy jackets when it gets cold. Or wish they could afford to do so.

In my own circles, this type of clothing is not denigrated for political reasons, and some of the most liberally-minded people I know are also some of the best-dressers, classically speaking (if you ascribe anti-conservative ideas to liberalism, which is not the case in Canada). I'm sure some other styles are more popular in the generation on the whole, but I haven't found that anyone associates classic, Western clothing with anything negative or retro-gradient automatically. In fact, I've heard it more commonly expressed by those who fear what others might think of their own style.
I suppose I don't know what youth fashion means outside of what happens on the internet, as a lot of youth fashion nowadays is online through sites such as Instagram, TikTok, and Depop. Or sites like Grailed, to the degree that a segment of GenZ is on Grailed. I don't think this sort of regional style discussion is meaningful anymore (also, are you actually hanging out with GenZers? Aren't you like in your 30s?)

I suppose if you define CM as "shirts, overcoats, and boots," then maybe GenZ is into CM because they wear those things. But I would not call CM as being shirts, overcoats and boots, but rather very specific iterations of those things. A Saint Laurent overcoat is not CM; a Ben Silver overcoat is CM.

I think fundamentally, young people are interested in what's cool, and they have been since the 1960s. CM is just not cool. It requires a pop-cultural moment to make it cool -- a certain TV show or movie, certain designers, or musicians. When I think about the "cool moments" in CM post-war, I think of designers like Armani and RL. Or I think of the most recent obsession with Mad Men (now long passed).

CM guys love complaining about coolness. Many have formed an identity around being grouchy cranks. By definition, complaining about what's cool is not cool. It may be that CM will one day have its day in the sun, but it will not be because of this very niche online culture around classic men's style. It will require a pop-cultural moment.
 

dieworkwear

Mahatma Jawndi
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StyleForum guys: Zoomers loves CM

An actual zoomer:

 

DoubleDouble

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I haven't found that anyone associates classic, Western clothing with anything negative or retro-gradient automatically. In fact, I've heard it more commonly expressed by those who fear what others might think of their own style.
Isn't that the point though? People care about what others think of them. Especially true for kids. And kids see that people who are racist, classist, and homophobic have traditionally worn and generally continue to wear what the laymen would identify as CM.

There's always going to be exceptions, but largely speaking if young folks wear CM pieces it's usually:
  1. Just a piece or two in an outfit that's otherwise more contemporary.
  2. Worn in a very different spirit.
 

dieworkwear

Mahatma Jawndi
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Going to dress my 16-year-old son in a navy Fresco sport coat, black grenadine, Mercer OCBD with the perfect 1960s collar roll, high-waisted Fox flannel trousers, and Norwegian split toe shoes so he's the coolest kid in high school and will definitely not get beaten up.
 

monkey66

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Back to the original post:

Burberry = fashion financial success story, leveraged their heritage to appeal to a new audience. One of my non-cm gen-x friends baulks at the idea of me wearing (classic) Burberry as he thinks of it only as 'chavy'. Chav is a British, derogatory term for new moneyed, try too hard, label forward, not sophisticated.

Chav+culture+son.jpg


66464789505a4a905f872db374a4860d--gold-jewellery-burberry.jpg


...you get the idea.

Aquascutm = made me a dinner suit 20 years ago. Now seen as a second rate Burberry by the above clientele went bust in April 2020, don't know if the news reached cm graveyard?

Draw you own conclusions.

Wear what you dig.

Try to avoid terms that some people have found significantly oppressive.

I used the term 'chav' ....I'll get my coat.

Qsuy8q.gif
 
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Peter1

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For sure! I'd even go one step further and say that most men would do better to avoid many of the accessories that #menswear encouraged. It takes a certain level of of effortless cool in order to pull off pocket squares, collar pins, boutonnieres etc. without looking like an affected jackass. Guys would do better to nail the basics starting with perfecting fit. Get a luxurious tie, good shoes, and an heirloom-grade wristwatch. Save the foppish shit for movies and tv. Everyday style isn't about emulating Jay Gatsby or adhering to a list of antiquated rules on menswear etiquette, which is what some YouTube 'gurus' would seemingly have you think...
Styfo circa 2008
 

Andy57

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Go to the store. Ask to see the long Westminster and Kensington Heritage trench coat models. Do not let your attitude about the modern world color the way you see the store, products, and people around you at the store. Put on the trench and see how you look. If you like to wear this over a sport coat, bring your sport coat with you. These models should suit most people's preferences here. They are long, full trenches made from cotton gabardine, and constructed in the UK.

I realize people here will probably moan about the styling in these photos. Virtue signaling about your preferences for the Old World, high-class culture, and hate for the modern world is like a sport in some parts of classic menswear. Sometimes I think people like complaining about supposed the "hoi polloi" more than they actually like the clothes. But you can wear this with a more classic ensemble, if you want. The coats are expensive -- about $2,000 -- and they never go on sale (as far as I know). You can find versions of them second-hand if you search eBay for the terms Kensington and Westminster (don't buy the short models). O'Connell's also has some deadstock Burberrys for a little cheaper.



View attachment 1566258View attachment 1566259
Derek is right. The Heritage line does differ in some details from the classic Burberry trench coat from decades ago, but modern Burberry trench coats are still Burberry trench coats. I have a coat that is now vintage, but that I bought new in the late '70s (or maybe early '80s—it was a long time ago). That coat is poly-cotton. New Burberry trenches are all-cotton, like the original all-cotton version. I'd like the trench to be a little longer, but it's still decent. And pretty damn waterproof, too. I have two of them. I actually prefer my new trench coats to my vintage one, especially for the climate in which I live (which is the climate that Burberry salespeople, back in the day, would recommend for an all-cotton coat, which recommending the poly-cotton version for the UK climate).

Burberry also makes excellent overcoats, but you have to look for them (or have your private client shopper look for you, you know how it is). I have a superb camel hair DB overcoat I bought a few years ago in London, a type I had looked for for years. I saw it in Burberry's window, and bought it the next day. I have a couple of navy overcoats, too. They are all a good length, well below the knee, and good quality fabrics. I doubt you can buy better off the rack. The same goes for women's overcoats—every now and then you see a piece that is stylish, elegant, and very high quality.

Maybe 98% of the stuff Burberry carries I wouldn't give house room to, but the assertion that kicked off this bizarre thread simply isn't true. They still make a lot of good stuff. It's just not the stuff the company tends to promote.
 

TheIronDandy

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They’re also regional. In many parts of Asia pink is still considered masculine and blue feminine, as was the case in the west in the past. Here in Mongolia the most masculine thing you could ever wear is a deel, a wraparound robe often made from silk or brocade, tied with a colourful sash. And men who wrestle in their underwear are considered so powerful and manly they’re often enthusiastically swept to public office.
We have that in the west as well: Mixed Martial Arts. Then there's pro wrestling, where guys PRETEND to wrestle in their underwear (and boots! The boots are important!)

But yes, damn those androgynous models for ruining our traditional manliness!
 

mak1277

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Can we just all agree that none of us should really care what Gen Z is wearing because Bruce Boyer is right:

“To me, the height of idiocy is for a father to try to dress like his son. It shows the father doesn’t know himself, and his son won’t respect him for it.”
 

Phileas Fogg

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Can we just all agree that none of us should really care what Gen Z is wearing because Bruce Boyer is right:

“To me, the height of idiocy is for a father to try to dress like his son. It shows the father doesn’t know himself, and his son won’t respect him for it.”
Its not just fathers and sons. It’s mother’s and daughters too.
 

smittycl

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Derek is right. The Heritage line does differ in some details from the classic Burberry trench coat from decades ago, but modern Burberry trench coats are still Burberry trench coats. I have a coat that is now vintage, but that I bought new in the late '70s (or maybe early '80s—it was a long time ago). That coat is poly-cotton. New Burberry trenches are all-cotton, like the original all-cotton version. I'd like the trench to be a little longer, but it's still decent. And pretty damn waterproof, too. I have two of them. I actually prefer my new trench coats to my vintage one, especially for the climate in which I live (which is the climate that Burberry salespeople, back in the day, would recommend for an all-cotton coat, which recommending the poly-cotton version for the UK climate).

Burberry also makes excellent overcoats, but you have to look for them (or have your private client shopper look for you, you know how it is). I have a superb camel hair DB overcoat I bought a few years ago in London, a type I had looked for for years. I saw it in Burberry's window, and bought it the next day. I have a couple of navy overcoats, too. They are all a good length, well below the knee, and good quality fabrics. I doubt you can buy better off the rack. The same goes for women's overcoats—every now and then you see a piece that is stylish, elegant, and very high quality.

Maybe 98% of the stuff Burberry carries I wouldn't give house room to, but the assertion that kicked off this bizarre thread simply isn't true. They still make a lot of good stuff. It's just not the stuff the company tends to promote.
I agree. I got my wife several Burberry trenches over the years and they have held up well. I bought myself this indigo blue trench coat almost 10 years ago and wear it constantly Spring-Fall. Much like most makers today you have to cherry pick to find good stuff but it's there. Also, shorter rain coats are nice in warmer weather.

1614773993068.png
 
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zippyh

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Ask yourself, what would Lennie Briscoe wear?
 

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