Random health and exercise thoughts

Discussion in 'Health & Body' started by Eason, Dec 20, 2009.

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  1. GraphicNovelty

    GraphicNovelty Senior member

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    I actually like front squats a lot--I actually got some nerve damage in my neck/upper traps from bouncing at the top of my back squats. I'm trying to decide whether the Maxi-Pad or the Manta-Ray is less annoying to use (so far the answer is both are really annoying).
     


  2. jbw

    jbw Active Member

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    I was thinking about this more last night, and I feel like I can make a good argument that this thread's audience should deadlift, but can neglect the squat.

    It seems to me that the internet meme that "if you're serious you have to squat and you have to squat heavy", which is so prevalent in this thread, is a misapplication of Rippetoe. Rippetoe prefers the squat so much because he trains college athletes and the squat promotes explosive strength which has so much application to most sports. The deadlift doesn't promote explosive strength, so for him the squat is obviously going to be better. I think this strong preference for the squat got picked up in the internet popularization of Rippetoe's program (Stronglifts, etc.) but the reason for it (explosive strength) got lost. Because the squat is a fine exercise there's nothing self-correcting here, so there's no real reason to go back and critically examine this preference for squatting. So here's my argument:

    -Squat and deadlift are in the same category: compound lifts that work the whole body. Both promote general overall strength and muscle mass. I think you can pick just one (I know that is going to be controversial) unless you are super seriously into strength-training.

    - Functionally, the squat promotes explosive strength and carrying heavy stuff on your back. If you are not a serious athlete you do not need explosive strength and not too many people carry heavy things on their back. The squat has no real functional application to day-to-day life beyond general body strength. The deadlift promotes lifting weight from the ground with proper form. Everyone does this in real life, so it has real functional application. Nearly everyone tweaks (or worse) their lower back lifting stuff at some point. By strengthening the muscles involved in lifting and ingraining proper form the deadlift helps prevent that.

    -The squat targets quads and glutes more then the deadlift. But quads and glutes get lots of work from most cardio; just walking and climbing stairs does a good job working these muscles. Most active people seem to have pretty decent quad strength. The deadlift targets hamstrings and lower back. Hamstrings are an underworked muscle that is tough (and boring) to isolate. I think quad/hamstring imbalance is one of the contributors to knee injury. Lower back is another neglected muscle group, and a strong lower back is important just for sitting in a chair in the office. (Deadlift also get the calves which certainly aren't worth wasting time isolating.)

    -I'm still going to argue that deadlifting is a more natural movement that is easier to learn then the squat. You don't need a spotter and you don't need a rack (which are in short supply at most gym and sometimes clogged up with people doing whatever).

    -You always hear about people injuring themselves squatting. I don't seem to hear about it with deadlifting, which suggest it might be a safer choice with fewer consequences for mediocre form. From personal experience I can say the deadlift is much more forgiving for a bad knee. I'd argue the deadlift is a better life-long exercise.

    -The squat really suffers from the tendency to cheat-- i.e. decrease ROM as you add weight--even when you are trying to be careful. You can't cheat on a deadlift.

    -I'll even argue that its got more cachet. Lots of people squat, and since most squat with little ROM, they'll squat much heavier then someone trying to do it with good form. Judging from repeated posts on this thread, lots of people find that kind of discouraging. The deadlift is really neglected, and it just looks serious, even when you are not lifting much.

    Sorry if I'm getting pedantic here.
     


  3. mrchariybrown

    mrchariybrown Senior member Affiliate Vendor

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    First off, Rippetoe is smart and knows some of his shit. But ask any elite level lifter and they'll tell you that some of the stuff he says is garbage.

    You think just because squats and deadlifts are in the same "category" (very different), that you can pick one? Or should pick one? If you've got the option to have both awesome lifts in your training, WHYYYYY drop one?

    Functional strength for deadlifts? hahahahhaa when do you lift a bar with weight loaded on the ends of it in real life situations? If you want to make that argument, go do some strongman and lift atlas stones and flip tires. And LOL @ pointing out explosive strength with squats and not deadlifts. You try telling anyone that pulls a respectable amount that deadlifts aren't "explosive"

    Yes the squat targets the quads and glutes more than the deadlift for most people. More does not mean A LOT. If you really feel THAT much strain on your quads, your form sucks or you have a really close stance and wear high oly shoes. And even for the latter, quads aren't the first muscle group the usually failed during a squat. Also, what's the point of pointing out that cardio works the quads? Yo, planks and walking up hills backwards work the lower back and hamstring. We should all just not squat nor deadlift and run everywhere because that will get me REALLY REALLY STRONG.

    Neither are very easy to learn. You'd be surprised at how much most people's deadlift form could be improved upon. Just because it LOOKS easier doesn't mean it IS.

    More people with injuries squatting than deadlifting? Wrong. Yes, I've seen some lower back tweaks and maybe some beat up knees (from cutting depth) but nothing TOO serious. Now with deadlifts? Hyperextending the lower back at lockout causes a lot of people to fuck up their backs. Pulled and torn hamstrings. Pulled and TORN biceps. Watching that bicep retract back up into the arm is NOT a pretty sight.

    Your last point that people shouldn't squat is because a bunch of people do it wrong? My mind is blown. I'm not even starting with that.

    And you can't cheat on a deadlift?!?!? hahaha have you heard of hitching???






    Summary - Do squats. Do deadlifts.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2011


  4. jarude

    jarude Senior member

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    im not sure what your argument is against. are you saying people shouldnt squat? or that they shouldn't squat 3x a week? if you're saying people shouldn't squat, then you're a pussy, sorry. form can be learned, and poor rom is more an indication of being a pussy than anything else. if you're saying people shouldn't squat 3x a week ala stronglifts/SS then keep in mind you're arguing against a very small subset of beginning lifters who could only possibly benefit from squatting 3x a week.

    think of it this way: rippetoe is the only popular guy who advocates squatting 3x a week. Starting Strength is a great program to start out with and grind out until you plateau - squatting 3x a week is a great way to find out your recovery ability, work on form, and introduce you to the concept of hard work. furthermore, i think you're underrating the squat by saying only "athletes" need it. are people who do strength training not athletes to an extent? "explosive" strength has many applications and carry-over within the lifting world itself - just because nobody here is sprinting doesn't mean squats are totally worthless in a training context.

    i challenge you to find anybody in this thread who is currently squatting 3x a week and not at the beginner stage. virtually everyone who has lifted for longer than a year is squatting once a week as a primary movement, so im not sure what you argument is against. 5/3/1, ia's SPBR, ex's routines, whatever fuji's flavour of the week is (jk bro :fistbump:) all only include the squat once a week.

    saying people shouldn't squat so much is crap when you consider the only people squatting more than 1x a week are beginners doing one specific beginners program in which they could only ever benefit from squatting so much. i think you're making an argument against nothing here - beginners can benefit from lots of squats, and if it aint broke, dont fix it.

    im not even going to address some of the other stuff you've said since its quite simply not deserving of a rebuttal ("quads and glutes get a lot of work from just cardio;" implication that squats dont work the posterior chain and that people only ever hurt themselves squatting). i appreciate your desire to challenge the status quo but unfortunately i dont think theres any purpose, weight, or rigor to it.

    edit: chariy :fistbump:

    oh and this is certainly not an explosive lift aw hell naw no it aint:

     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2011


  5. mrchariybrown

    mrchariybrown Senior member Affiliate Vendor

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    Hahahaha Konstantinovs does not approve :)
     


  6. jbw

    jbw Active Member

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    okay, a little more just to provide amusement...

    In real life (not competitive lifting) most people don't squat and they don't deadlift. They probably don't even know what a deadlift is and they think squatting is bad for the knees. Some even use bosu balls. Jesus still loves them.

    Among the small set of people who do either of the above, most squat and do not deadlift. Here, it's clearly the SF-approved "I'm a really serious strength trainer, see" lift. I get the strong impression that most of those viewing this thread are not deadlifting, but are squatting or thinking they should squat.

    My argument is that for the average person (SF-reader) it should be the reverse. The focus should be on the deadlift not the squat. And I gave some reasons why.

    I'm not really arguing that you should not squat. But, yes, I suppose I do think that the average person doesn't need to do both and that the squat is okay to skip.

    what can I say, I'm a pussy.
     


  7. Lagrangian

    Lagrangian Senior member

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    PR snatch today, 2x1 w/ 47.5 kg. Nothing to write home about, but add another 25 kg to that and I'm @ a bw snatch.

    awesomeness
     


  8. jarude

    jarude Senior member

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    yeah, fuck responding to arguments, im just going to blandly summarize my already-poor reasoning and follow it up with an attempt at self-deprecation to save face.
     


  9. jbw

    jbw Active Member

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    ^no really, I do think I'm a pussy.

    Look, you said you didn't understand, was I saying people shouldn't squat? No, I am not arguing that. I'm arguing people should deadlift. But, yes, I do think it's okay not to squat.

    Anyhow, it's just an opinion. I listed the arguments that I have. I'm not an expert, so I don't feel comfortable going much deeper then my original post. Don't be mad.
     


  10. virus646

    virus646 Senior member

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    this is not junk pool (aka CE) so I'm at least happy to hear that he doesn't want it to turn in a debate flame war :nodding:

    On a similar note, I found out that working out the big lifts (squat/bench/dead lift) without actually doing them but doing similar lifts that use a good amount of similar muscles is quite beneficial and fun (basically Westside barbell method with max effort method and speed work for those that do know). I've been doing a 3 days version with only 1 legs days using box squats + either romanian dead lifts or good mornings (and accessories) for 4 weeks and increased my dead lift max total by a good 35 lbs (from 370 lbs to 405lbs) without doing a conventional one till I tested out my max. I wouldn't recommend it to those that are still beginning and just need to do the big lifts lots of time though.
     


  11. fuji

    fuji Senior member

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    Lol at not hurting yourself at deadlifts. I raped my back first few times I deadlifted by pulling with my back.
     


  12. sonick

    sonick Senior member

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    [​IMG]

    /discussion.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2011


  13. fuji

    fuji Senior member

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    Based on the photo, I'd have to say deads.
     


  14. Sir Humphrey Appleby

    Sir Humphrey Appleby Senior member

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    I'd say deadlifts based both on the photo and the exercise.
     


  15. Lagrangian

    Lagrangian Senior member

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    Why is this being framed as an either/or type of deal? A smart lifter training for strength will keep both lifts in there. If you for some reason do not want to squat, I doubt anyone gives two shits about it.
     


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