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Random fashion thoughts - Part II (A New Hope)

Discussion in 'Streetwear and Denim' started by LA Guy, May 15, 2015.

  1. gdl203

    gdl203 Senior member Dubiously Honored Affiliate Vendor

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    Totally agree with this. It was a lazy article where the journalist found one thread and constructed a story around a few crunchy posts/quotes. Nuclear was never even Manton's primary topic here, and certainly not any kind of obsession.

    But if we nuke everything after a couple of bad journalistic efforts like these, then that is all that will stand.

    Is it possible that some better journalists will spend more than an hour going through his posts and build a much more interesting, complete and balanced profile of Manton as a whole? I mean, he is a person in an important position and it will be worth the time for journalists with a better sense of their job.
     
  2. Fuuma

    Fuuma Senior member

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    Well Manton has written extensively about nuclear threats and deterrence in published articles. I don't think his private bar exchanges with friends should be a matter of public scrutiny as the tone of the CE often has to do with experimenting with extreme/out there arguments and not about definite positions.

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/author/michael-anton
     
    1 person likes this.
  3. the shah

    the shah Senior member

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    maybe i misunderstood but if someone owns a bunker that can withstand some sort of small nuclear blast ...

    second part is fair, certainly. but wouldn't make for as juicy of a story. look at all the madness it's caused here, imagine the revenues from all those page views, etc. the free market at work !
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
  4. gdl203

    gdl203 Senior member Dubiously Honored Affiliate Vendor

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    Oh come on, are you on the bandwagon of bashing the press as only interested in reporting juicy? Please don't fall for that trumpistic cynism.

    You don't think that there's enough good reporters at NYT, Wapo, NYer, etc... to treat this with journalistic integrity and really dig deeper into the mine of posts and have a real, strong paper on an increasingly interesting figure if the as administration? One could write a 8-page profile with all the information available here, and a much better rounded view of the guy.

    If anything, the real story is how discourse has been reasonably cordial here, about how many people have always kinda liked Manton despite opposite views on many political topics (or on pocket square theory).
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
    2 people like this.
  5. Synthese

    Synthese Darth Millennial Dubiously Honored Moderator

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    Tangential, but I wonder how much the last part is really true of anyone on this board, even the most prolific. I've never met anyone from SF and thought "Ah! You're just like you are on the internet."
     
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  6. dieworkwear

    dieworkwear Senior member

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    Well, here's an open offer to anyone:

    There's a GQ writer currently working on a story about Manton and his history on StyleForum. I'm hoping that he won't do such a sloppy job of representing him, but he's also looking for quotes from StyleForum members.

    I declined to comment, but if anyone wants to talk to the writer, just PM me. I can pass your info to the writer.

    The gist of the story, FYI, is whether people are bothered by Manton's views. And, I suppose, whether they think he's a crypto-fascist.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
  7. OccultaVexillum

    OccultaVexillum Senior member

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    Please don't be Jake Wolf
     
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  8. dieworkwear

    dieworkwear Senior member

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    No, it's not.

    I don't want to brush off the writer because I don't know that much about him. But just look at the gist of the story:

    "Whether people on SF care about Manton's views and think he's a crypto-fascist."

    Imagine selling that story if the answer is bland as "StyleForum is a cordial place where people get along, and Manton's views aren't crypto-fascist. Most people like him here."

    That would get exactly zero click throughs.

    But who knows, maybe the guy will do a great story. More of my cynicism about how internet media works, rather than that writer (which, again, I know nothing about).
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
  9. Fuuma

    Fuuma Senior member

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    Manton has called me the exemplary illustration of radical leftist bourgeois disingenuous treatment of the right or something of the sort, not sure that I can contribute.
     
    8 people like this.
  10. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member Admin Moderator

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    Sigh. I give up. Talk on. I'll clean this thread up like the janitor that I am and stick this all in CE at the end of the day. CE is private, btw, and the post counts are not updated there. Not sure if that is retroactive or not.
     
    1 person likes this.
  11. oulipien

    oulipien Senior member

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    I have to say, based solely on the Claremont and UNZ articles (that is, not stuff from here selected by a reporter for The Intercept, but full pieces published by him for public consumption), my best guess about putative crypto-fascism is "maybe not quite 'crypto', no", so, you know.
     
  12. dieworkwear

    dieworkwear Senior member

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    Yea, I think fascism is a real and specific thing, and the term is often misused. And not in the sense that Richard Spencer says he's not a Nazi. In the sense that, if you paint Manton as a crypto-fascist, then anyone who's a real conservative, short of Bill Kristol, is a "fascist."

    It's a misuse of the term, and more about slandering your political opponents than a genuine effort to understand politics.

    Manton is a conservative. I think his views have an underlying racial bias, but I think that about a lot of conservatives. That doesn't make him or other conservatives fascists.
     
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  13. the shah

    the shah Senior member

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    It's not cynicism it's just my perception of what's become hyper-active news cycles. They may very well have had the resources and talent to write a good piece, but it would be less exciting (because , unfortunately for interested parties in the media, he's not a foaming at the mouth lunatic that infiltrated the upper echelons of the presidential cabinet). Less excitement translates to less controversy and ultimately less revenues. and I assume a sensationalist and quickly written (hence poorly researched) article is cheaper. I don't think it's too far fetched to assume revenue is the primary motive of any corporation. I mean, we clearly know it's horribly inaccurate at best, so what other motive would there be?
     
  14. oulipien

    oulipien Senior member

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    No, being racist doesn't make you a conservative (incidentally, I'm not sure why anyone would want to have a cordial relationship with someone who could write those pieces), but it's possible to build *too* much historical specificity into the denotation of "fascism". Alas, Facebook's awful search facilities prevent me from finding the rather nice way a friend put this point, but the gist was that a modern fascism wouldn't look just like 30s fascism in updated dress; it would be different according to the different conditions currently prevailing. The family resemblance of cousins, not twins. You might indeed think that the politics revealed by the articles under the Mus pseudonym don't merit the term "fascism" even under a historically inflected understanding, in which case, fine; I'm happy to substitute terms with less semantic stickiness. The substance can be bad enough, regardless of the name (even if one thinks that the substance does merit the name!).

    As far as understanding poiltics goes, calling Trump supporters "conservative" is also not doing so great. The modern Republican party, and Trump along with it, are radicals (yes, Virginia, there are radicals on the right, too). There is a conservative force in American politics; it's the middle-of-the-road wing of the Democratic party. So while I don't know what you mean by "real conservative", I suspect I would think that most whom you would thereby classify are in fact radicals.
     
  15. nahneun

    nahneun Senior member

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    wait what. i'm exactly the same
     
  16. dieworkwear

    dieworkwear Senior member

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    This is veering into territory that goes beyond Manton, which I think is better taken up in actual CE threads.

    The bare minimum of fascism is allegiance to a state. And Manton is too opposed to state control for that. I mean, all you're doing is using the word fascist to say "this person has views I dislike and find extreme." The right today calls the left fascists; the left calls the right fascist. It's a stupid, watered down, utterly misused word at this point.

    Nationalism isn't enough of a qualifier for fascism, any more than patriotism. Having racially biased politics also isn't a qualifier. Just think of what your definition leads to. Almost anyone, in that sense, can be called a fascist.

    Frankly, my political views are more fascist than Manton's, simply because I'm more statist. And I'm not a fascist.
     
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  17. 1969

    1969 Senior member

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    I think the only way to write a balanced story on this that would still be interesting would be to shift the focus from Manton's political views towards the growing reality that a lot of people will have an online presence to account for in the future. But then I guess you couldn't use the mushroom cloud stock photo.
     
    4 people like this.
  18. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member Admin Moderator

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    Let's not call people Nazis. Also, if you are going to call someone a fascist, please make sure you are using that term correctly. Thanks for the civility, guys.
     
  19. oulipien

    oulipien Senior member

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    Since I haven't offered a definition (and neither, incidentally, have you, so it's not entirely clear what you're denying in denying that Manton is a crypto-fascist—it's not like there is a single standard uncontroverted definition of fascism on which all agree), I'm not sure what you think my definition, or my sense of the term, leads to? You believe that I use it to label anyone whose politics I find extreme and distasteful; as a counterexample, I offer the politics of the members of the black bloc, which I do not consider fascistic, though I do consider them radical, and extreme, and distasteful.

    I think that "allegiance to a state" is not a very helpful criterion, in part because conceptions of what a state is and what a state is for are apt to vary a lot depending on your political convictions (and it is simply risible to allege that someone who believes in high levels of state support for citizens' welfare is to that extent more fascist than someone who thinks all of that should be in private hands). Allegiance to an authoritarian, nationalist *leader* seems much more to the point to me, if we're talking about allegiances.

    As for state *control* specifically, this is a good piece: https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/the-supermanagerial-reich/
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. oulipien

    oulipien Senior member

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    I appreciate the call for terminological care but it seems as if much of the current dispute is precisely about what the correct use of the term is in the first place; it's just a dispute that's being carried out in the material rather than the formal mode. Even if the criteria for correct application of political terms were not themselves matters of political dispute, it would still not be clearly correct *or* incorrect to build X amount of specificity into the term. It's not like we're arguing about whether something is a rhombus or a parallelogram.
     

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