Random Fashion Thoughts (Part 3: Style farmer strikes back) - our general discussion thread

[whorishconsumer]

I just bought a replacement shirt in a larger size because of my belly.

 

[blacklight]

Gen Z is a bunch of sissies who get offended by anything and everything. Social media is toxic, it doesn't matter your intentions someone will find a way to criticize anything. People have posted photos of their body transformations after years of dieting and time spent in the gym and people will criticize them for being insensitive for the people who "tried everything" and can't lose weight.

How many Gen Z people did you interact with on a frequent basis in the real world pre-COVID? Just a number is fine. I want to see something.

Re: the article. This is a hilariously poor piece of writing.

One of my major concerns with the percolation of black aesthetic and linguistics into broader popular culture is that the zeitgeist observers at legacy outlets are even more removed from that world than they are their own kids. What this means it that by the time pop culture shifts reach a mainstream (older) readership, much of the original context and significance is lost, creating a skewed understanding of what those darned kids are crying about this time. It's like a pretentious version of Chinese whispers. NYT and the Guardian are especially egregious with this.

Let's have a look:

"Right now, it is “dripping”."
No it is not. "Drip" is the 2020s equivalent to the 2010s usage of "swag" (as an object as opposed to general ease of style) The reason I do not believe the author here is because "drip" is not used in the present participle. If I see @whorishconsumer in the street in his new Rimbauds and I think they are cool, I would tell him "that's drip." What I would not say is "Your shoes fit you so great, they're dripping." The author heard a term she thought was cool and attempted to create a narrative from it, which is an obscene amount of power considering her audience at the Guardian is largely unequipped to check her claims regarding youth culture.

A quick look at the other terms she uses in an attempt to establish a genealogy proves my point.

"In 2018, it was “fierce” (Not what this means)
"last year it was “extra” (Not what this means either)

"Drip" did not even emerge from the same subculture as "fierce"
or "extra", so I'm not even sure who out there has cycled through all three terms in three years. We are two paragraphs in and I already do not believe her.

"Girls I speak to from generation Z tend not to use it."
This doesn't even sound convincing. Who? Which ones? Were they surveyed? Are these the Gen Zers I'm supposed to believe she "talk[ed] to" before or after a global pandemic? Do they not use the word out of active avoidance or *maybe* because no one under the age of 30 actually uses the word flattering?

Now that we've established that the author lacks credibility, I'd like to get to the important point.

Anyone who read the piece critically should have been able to gauge that the actual angle here – and what the author should have interrogated – is not those darn millennials trying to destroy the English language again, but a specific way younger women on social media are moving to dismantle what they regard as oppressive structures built into the way we talk about and regard women's bodies, which whether we think they are crazy or not, might be worth reflecting upon. Because you came prepared with your own biases, you failed to realize that the article has nothing to say about young men, nor does it have anything to offer regarding women who are not activists (they tend to get mad at stuff), social media personalities (they also tend to get mad at stuff), celebrities, and women in that age bracket who cannot afford much fashion (most of them.) In short, most of the generation that is evidently "a bunch of sissies."

Oops, there I go, a Gen Zer, getting mad about something. Guess you were right after all.

/s (this denotes sarcasm)

 

[zissou]

Are there any established Stylefarmers in Singapore who might be interested in proxying something for me? I seek help harvesting a rare and exotic vegetable. In exchange, I will make a nice leather thing for you.

 

[steveoffice]

Gen Z is a bunch of sissies who get offended by anything and everything. Social media is toxic, it doesn't matter your intentions someone will find a way to criticize anything. People have posted photos of their body transformations after years of dieting and time spent in the gym and people will criticize them for being insensitive for the people who "tried everything" and can't lose weight.

Chrissy Teigen made a post on how she is a ditz who always loses her Apple headphones and people criticize her for being insensitive and rich and talk about how they can't even afford one.

A lot of people would rather ***** and whine about things than put in the hard work to get what they want or reach their goal.

ok boomer

 

[am55]

Are there any established Stylefarmers in Singapore who might be interested in proxying something for me? I seek help harvesting a rare and exotic vegetable. In exchange, I will make a nice leather thing for you.

I would have loved to help but temporarily exiled however very curious as to which plant. Most of the exotic rare stuff here is fruit and Chinese electronics.

 

[Timbaland]

@blacklight I was generalizing Gen Z like the article was as a tongue in cheek thing. I didn't literally mean all Gen Z'ers are like that. Right now the voices that are heard aren't always that of the majority, it is the loudest. The same goes for people who write articles.

Obviously I disagree with the writer that the word flattering is offensive, only a very small percentage of the population has the dimensions of a model. But certain clothes (fits) look better on certain body types, I don't think anyone can argue that. I can't wear skinny jeans, it makes my legs look like sausages.

How would you describe clothes that fit people better without using the word flattering? Would you just have to say they look good?

 

[cocostella]

Everybody is the worst.

 

[steveoffice]

I would have loved to help but temporarily exiled however very curious as to which plant. Most of the exotic rare stuff here is fruit and Chinese electronics.

did u get in trouble with the social distancing robot

 

[Joytropics]

I would have loved to help but temporarily exiled however very curious as to which plant. Most of the exotic rare stuff here is fruit and Chinese electronics.

 

[zissou]

I would have loved to help but temporarily exiled however very curious as to which plant. Most of the exotic rare stuff here is fruit and Chinese electronics.

It is, in fact, a pair of vegetables to be worn on the feet. I’ll reveal them only once harvested since they seem to be the last known pair for sale in the world.

 

[blacklight]

@blacklight I was generalizing Gen Z like the article was as a tongue in cheek thing. I didn't literally mean all Gen Z'ers are like that. Right now the voices that are heard aren't always that of the majority, it is the loudest. The same goes for people who write articles.

Obviously I disagree with the writer that the word flattering is offensive, only a very small percentage of the population has the dimensions of a model. But certain clothes (fits) look better on certain body types, I don't think anyone can argue that. I can't wear skinny jeans, it makes my legs look like sausages.

How would you describe clothes that fit people better without using the word flattering? Would you just have to say they look good?

In that case allow me to apologize. There's an absurd amount of writing on young people that often seems like beating down because there are no 25 year olds getting regular op-eds at the NYT.

I agree with you. I don't know enough about the PCness/gender politics to know whether we should be using the term. What I do know is that of the women I know none of them is likely to care as much about the word choice as much as who is complimenting them, which has to do with power dynamics. The ethos here is something along the lines of: "OK, but who gave you the right to judge my appearance." (Yeah, contemporary feminism is a minefield)

If I had to guess I would say it probably just feels patronizing, precisely because it sounds like a word your parents would use. And parents, of course, are the opposite of autonomy. I cannot imagine that Saint Laurent, Reformation, or current LV would use the term flattering in an attempt to sell gear to young women. As I'm browsing Reformation now, actually, most of the product descriptions seem to actively avoid the suggestion of one's body being improved by the garment (an expression of external gaze) and place that agency at the feet of the wearer, who is probably young, not as attractive as the models, and likely to be paying with credit card. (psst, she wants to feel empowered)

For example, the listing for the brand's Brewer dress reads: "For your wearing pleasure... There is an adjustable tie at the waist so you can adjust it to your liking." When you consider that their brand identity is all about empowering women to ignore the external gaze while still feeling desirable, it becomes easy to understand why they're so popular.

 

[dieworkwear]

Obviously I disagree with the writer that the word flattering is offensive, only a very small percentage of the population has the dimensions of a model. But certain clothes (fits) look better on certain body types, I don't think anyone can argue that. I can't wear skinny jeans, it makes my legs look like sausages.

How would you describe clothes that fit people better without using the word flattering? Would you just have to say they look good?

I don't think the author would object to those uses of the word flattering? The author is objecting to how the word flattering is used as a substitute for slimming, which she says is connected to unhealthy body type image issues among women. The first paragraph even says that flattering can be fine in some contexts.

If I had to guess I would say it probably just feels patronizing, precisely because it sounds like a word your parents would use. And parents, of course, are the opposite of autonomy. I cannot imagine that Saint Laurent, Reformation, or current Louis Vuitton would use the term flattering in an attempt to sell gear to young women. As I'm browsing Reformation now, actually, most of the production descriptions seem to actively avoid any suggestion of one's body being improved by the garment (an expression of external gaze) and place that agency at the feet of the wearer.

For example, the listing for the brand's Brewer dress reads: "For your wearing pleasure... There is an adjustable tie at the waist so you can adjust it to your liking." When you consider that their brand identity is all about empowering women to ignore the external gaze while still feeling desirable, it becomes easy to understand why they're so popular.

Color: Ditty

Am I wrong in thinking that's what the article is trying to say?

From the article:

With inclusive sizing, “nude” shades across a broad spectrum of skin tones and diverse model casting, the modern underwear brand Heist represents fashion pivoting to the language of a new generation of consumer. Heist avoids using “flattering” as a selling point, “because we strive to be empathic,” says its chief operating officer Natasja Giezen-Smith. Instead, the website is peppered with words such as “confidence”, “comfort”, “happiness” and “support”.

The disquiet around the word “flattering” isn’t about pretending our body hang-ups have gone away, but about a rising consciousness of where those hang-ups come from. “Insecurities don’t just go away overnight,” says Davidson. “I have had a lot of unlearning to do.”

The activist Kellie Brown, creator of the #FatatFashionWeek hashtag, has talked about body positivity as a “self-love journey”. “Feelings of insecurity are not singular. Everyone experiences those, no matter where you come from, what your size is or what your race is,” she says. “I want people to understand that, really, the journey of life is to push past those feelings.” One of her most recent Instagram posts, a poolside selfie in a neon yellow bikini, is captioned “just here to remind you that you don’t need to be an hourglass to wear a high-cut bathing suit … would recommend not subscribing to bullsh*t that robs you of self-love”.

The real trouble with “flattering” is that it presses mute on what fashion can be, and what your wardrobe can say about you. Great clothes can spread joy, not just minimise your waist. They should amplify your personality, not shrink your silhouette. Deplatforming “flattering” from the lexicon is about the narrative arc of a woman’s life not being plotted according to the numbers on the scales.

 

[Timbaland]

I don't think the author would object to those uses of the word flattering? The author is objecting to how the word flattering is used as a substitute for slimming, which she says is connected to unhealthy body type image issues among women. The first paragraph even says that flattering can be fine in some contexts.

How do we know the intent of a sales person when they use the word flattering? The customer could take the word as offensive depending on their own self image/body consciousness.

While some sales people have bias towards body types (not all of them do) their job is to sell items so they can make commission. I would think the majority of them who say it aren't doing so in a negative or disrespectful way.

 

[blacklight]

Am I wrong in thinking that's what the article is trying to say?

Yeah, my concern was that the writing is so poor I could see how there might be readers who end up missing this. See:

Anyone who read the piece critically should have been able to gauge that the actual angle here – and what the author should have interrogated – is not those darn millennials trying to destroy the English language again, but a specific way younger women on social media are moving to dismantle what they regard as oppressive structures built into the way we talk about and regard women's bodies

How do we know the intent of a sales person when they use the word flattering? The customer could take the word flattering as offensive depending on their own self image/body consciousness.

And this is why I called it a minefield. A single hysteric or crusader walks through the door and next thing your brand is getting blasted on Twitter for being sexist. It's not an easy time for anyone. But this is why you hire and empower young talent.

 

[dieworkwear]

How do we know the intent of a sales person when they use the word flattering? The customer could take the word flattering as offensive depending on their own self image/body consciousness.

While some sales people have bias towards body types (not all of them do) their job is to sell items so they can make commission. I would think the majority of them who say it aren't doing so in a negative way.

And this is why I called it a minefield. A single hysteric or crusader walks through the door and next thing your brand is getting blasted on Twitter for being sexist. It's not an easy time for anyone. But this is why you hire and empower young talent.

I don't know. I think you guys are blowing this out of proportion. No one is going to take a cell phone video of a salesperson saying the word flattering and blow it up on social media. This is almost beyond Fox News' Happy Holidays fantasy land.

If you don't like the word flattering and you hear a sales associate use it, just keep it moving. I think the author is addressing the way people use language. I don't write about womenswear and I don't write for female audiences. But if I did, I would just be more cognizant of how I use that term, that's all.