Random Fashion Thoughts (Part 3: Style farmer strikes back) - our general discussion thread

[Benesyed]

I just want to add another perspective. In my heart of hearts I dont understand taking offense at a term when their is no intent to offend. I have heard a million and one arguments and I dont find them convincing. In my younger days I wanted to use these sorts of words, as I get older they seem less and less like something for me to use. Im still somewhat shocked that words like marsupialed get thrown around as frequetly as they do, or ****** for that matter.

The better argument for me has been a very utilitarian look at the discomfort it causes friends i care about that i fail to respect this limitation versus my desire to use the word. Isn't there some ethical value to trying to avoid causing suffering to someone when we can. Even if you get an additional instrumental enjoyment, perhaps its not worth the distress it causes another. After all, you cant be responsible for their reaction, but you can be for your actions in the first place

 

[LA Guy]

I also disagree - TNC is right in that the context here matters. I think it seems reasonable that Kanye and Jay-Z would use the title of the song to refer to themselves, partying in paris. TNC's most important point in the video is where he asks why people feel this desire to use the word, despite all its associations and tortured history, and there doesn't seem to be a justifiable, not tone-deaf reason that two rich white women and their friends referred to themselves as "n*ggas" in the privacy of their own company. It is straight-up bizarre and chalking it up to fandom is borderline gaslighting. I mean....c'mon. No one *actually* believes that, right?

It's not that bizarre to chalk it up to fandom, in that these women wouldn't even know the term except for their having heard it in rap songs. They are imitating something they heard. The clumsy apology suggests that they have no cultural connection with the term whatsoever. Have you read Trevor Noah's book "Born a Crime" in which he has a mutually self-righteous encounter with a Jewish woman when his friend Hitler dances?

 

[dieworkwear]

Had such a great day eating cake and seeing Edward Sexton's tailoring (which is even cooler in person than in photos and I think I might get a sport coat). Came in here only to see people asking if they can use the n-word. lol.

 

[LA Guy]

it's hard to tell if it's genius marketing -- like something that Warhol would have done -- or totally lame. but it's geared to the Instragram generation for sure. I still like old Marc Jacobs x Juergen Teller ads from the 90s so don't listen to me.

It's possible that it's both?

 

[LA Guy]

Had such a great day eating cake and seeing Edward Sexton's tailoring (which is even cooler in person than in photos and I think I might get a sport coat). Came in here only to see people asking if they can use the n-word. lol.

1) Cake should be eaten every day. It's food for the soul.
2) Do it. I doubt that you'll regret the commission, even if you rarely wear it.
3) No one is asking whether they can use the N-word - we are just discussing whether the Eastern European version of the girls in Clueless should be run out of fashion-town on a rail for doing so.

 

[dieworkwear]

1) Cake should be eaten every day. It's food for the soul.
2) Do it. I doubt that you'll regret the commission, even if you rarely wear it.
3) No one is asking whether they can use the N-word - we are just discussing whether the Eastern European version of the girls in Clueless should be run out of fashion-town on a rail for doing so.

I'm not going to tell black people how they should feel about non-blacks using the n-word. That seems really stupid to me. As for other people ganging up on her online -- I don't know, that's the internet. It sucks, but good grief talk about how stupid you have to be to use that word if you're not in that community.

Anyway, the tailoring was great. Super duper strong shoulder. I wasn't really used to it at first, but the more I looked at it, the more I liked it. Even as a sport coat. Very much a fashion cut, very 70s Nutter. But it looked and felt so cool.

Only thing is that they're super pricey. Their sport coat price is about how much Steed charges for a suit, and their suit price is about how much Liverano charges for a suit (which is really up there). But the cut looks damn awesome.

 

[LA Guy]

I'm not going to tell black people how they should feel about non-blacks using the n-word. That seems really stupid to me. As for other people ganging up on her online -- I don't know, that's the internet. It sucks, but good grief talk about how stupid you have to be to use that word if you're not in that community.

Anyway, the tailoring was great. Super duper strong shoulder. I wasn't really used to it at first, but the more I looked at it, the more I liked it. Even as a sport coat. Very much a fashion cut, very 70s Nutter. But it looked and felt so cool.

Only thing is that they're super pricey. Their sport coat price is about how much Steed charges for a suit, and their suit price is about how much Liverano charges for a suit (which is really up there). But the cut looks damn awesome.

I think that Liverano is cheaper if you can get to Florence.

Nutter suits rule. And they are super cool. imo, they are so distinctive as to be "timeless" in that they are iconic and as such are harder to place as characteristic of a specific period.

 

[UrbanComposition]

Had such a great day eating cake and seeing Edward Sexton's tailoring (which is even cooler in person than in photos and I think I might get a sport coat). Came in here only to see people asking if they can use the n-word. lol.

The strong shoulder is definitely a look. But a good one. Is it roped?

 

[dieworkwear]

The strong shoulder is definitely a look. But a good one. Is it roped?

Yea, they basically have two lines (well three if you count rtw).

The offshore line is cut in-house off block patterns, then the bundle is sent off to a workshop in China for the making process. That garment is then sent back to London -- without buttonholes -- for what's essentially a final fitting. So, basically made straight to finish, for all intents and purposes, although there's big seam allowances in there that allow you to change things if necessary.

Then there's the Knightsbridge bespoke, which is their fully traditional, in-house bespoke program. The usual operation of three fittings and what not.

The offshore is about half the price of Knightsbridge, and while it looked nice, the blocks seemed to be toned down from the full-on, heavy duty, Sexton look. Like, padded shoulder, but not TOO padded. Angular lines, but not TOO angular. Single breasted peak lapel but not NUTTER single breasted peak.

I thought the offshore sample looked nice, but they let me try on a client's bespoke jacket. Client is some writer doing a book on Tommy Nutter, so he commissioned this full on Nutter style coat. Huge peak lapels, massive shoulder, roped sleeveheads, patch pockets cut on a bias. Huge checked fabric. The jacket was a size or so too big on me, but it give me a rough estimation of how the no-holds-barred style would look.

TBH, at first, it felt and looked weird. Like ... not bad weird, but alien. I didn't really understand it. Why are the shoulders so huge? Why don't the lapels seem like the terminate? Is this ... good?

But you let it sit for a while, and you get used to the idea. And then you think about all that funky Nutter history, and the Beatles and Rolling Stones, and the crazy plaids, and the balls out crazy 70s London scene. And I don't know ... I sorta ended up liking it. It's definitely not Italian sprezzatura. No American Ivy. I think of it more as a fashion jacket, really. Thinking about maybe getting something in a fabric that would make for a good "night out on the town" jacket. It's aggressive, but kind of fun. There's a weird sense of sleaziness to it that I think some people on this side of the board would appreciate.

 

[UrbanComposition]

I like that look a lot, even if it’s a bit polarizing. It’s the opposite of wanting to blend in. Still, when done well, it looks soooo cool.

 

[robinsongreen68]

@dieworkwear glad to hear you say this, the internet often makes me feel that my preference for strong shouldered suits is vaguely shameful
have you seen much of davide taub's work? seems to be a similar silhouette. and again IRL it has a sort of streetwear edge, reminds me a bit of noughties margiela regis sleaze.

 

[dieworkwear]

@dieworkwear glad to hear you say this, the internet often makes me feel that my preference for strong shouldered suits is vaguely shameful
have you seen much of davide taub's work? seems to be a similar silhouette. and again IRL it has a sort of streetwear edge, reminds me a bit of noughties margiela sleaze vibe.

Yea, Taub is terrific. He used to maintain a blog -- maybe he still does -- that showed some of his more creative work. In interviews, he's expressed an interest and admiration for Rick Owens, which probably indicates that he's interested in the broader fashion world outside of tailoring. I think he's endlessly creative, although Gieves & Hawkes, where he works, is crazy crazy expensive.

There was a New Yorker article written about him, where the writer essentially captured this constant, never-ending, self-doubting we all have over whether we should buy something expensive. Face pressed up against the glass, looking at something pretty. Writer basically wanted a G&H suit, but the price was out of his reach, so he went for something cheaper. And as usual, like anyone who compromises in that way, they just end up being not totally satisfied. Anyway, the writer sorta painted Taub as this semi-awkward character, but I thought Taub came off charming. Or, at least, very relatable.

I think the niche world of tailoring afficinados is all about that soft shoulder and sprezz and Ivy. But strong shoulder is very popular in the broader fashion world. Some Margiela, as you noted. Also Tom Ford. Super strong shoulder line with this bursting chest that's shaped like a wired bra. The company puts a ton of stiff haircloth in there, which is made from a stiff and wirey horse hair. That's how you get that sexy, almost rounded chest.

Some super strong shoulders in womenswear during the early 20th century. Almost square here:



Nutter on women:

Bowie

I think more than thinking soft shoulder = causal, strong shoulder = formal, I got a better appreciation today of how a strong shoulder line can be a very fashionable look. And by extension, also pretty casual since it's clearly a highly stylized fashion garment, not business dress.

 

[clee1982]

What’s pricing for G&H, Edward Sexton (want to know what’s crazy expensive mean, Ciffonelli pricing?). I like strong shoulder as well, though never thought of a casual strong shoulder other than velvet/dinner jacket kind of thing.

 

[nahneun]

What is this x at the bottom of my screen

 

[King Calder]

It's not that bizarre to chalk it up to fandom, in that these women wouldn't even know the term except for their having heard it in rap songs. They are imitating something they heard. The clumsy apology suggests that they have no cultural connection with the term whatsoever. Have you read Trevor Noah's book "Born a Crime" in which he has a mutually self-righteous encounter with a Jewish woman when his friend Hitler dances?

I have not because I find Trevor Noah to be neither funny nor interesting. Regardless, if getting personally dragged or having one of your friends get dragged for posting this image to a website *on MLK weekend* doesn’t maybe clue you into learning about the do’s and don’ts of American racism, that’s on you. Why are you talking about these women like they're five years old? These women aren’t small town bumpkins anymore: they are prominent, international fashion figures who work in an industry that routinely, if not over-enthusiastically, reckons with issues of racism, transphobia, and size shaming. No excuses.