Random Fashion Thoughts (Part 3: Style farmer strikes back) - our general discussion thread

[ManofKent]

Go ahead, articulate how it is untrue

define good and evil and explain how those categories are applicable in a objective universal sense without a transcendental reality?

Good and evil are purely subjective and only formed by the consensus of a societal group.

 

[double00]

Is that even a thing people do? Yikes.

Do people read scripture to consider the character of humanity? Yes!

 

[Patrick R]

Do people read scripture to consider the character of humanity? Yes!

That's a totally different issue. Even as someone that doesn't believe in any deity, I am 100% for reading scripture to consider the character of humanity.

 

[Alexidb]

you clearly misread my post.

I quoted Atheistic Philosopher John Gray, in his criticism of Humanism. those are not my words, they are his.......he said humanism is religion lite and that to be a true Atheist or humanism we should let go of the idea of value, progress, person hood
etc.......

I didn’t misread your post you used a quote from an atheist to further your point that good and evil can only be viewed and understood from a theist point of view. The quote also claimed that good and evil can only be view and realized from a Christian worldview, which I pointed out is demonstrably false. You then asked me to prove it and I did.

 

[Zamb]

Good and evil are purely subjective and only formed by the consensus of a societal group.

if this is true then we have HUGE problem. it means then that these categories only have the meaning we give to them.
And so a society who things its morally acceptable to kill people once they reach age 60 is perfectly justified if it collectively agree this is good.

it means then that a society that think it OK for aged men to marry young girls cannot be condemned because such arrangements are agreed on by the society

personally i reject that and think its DANGEROUS. Hitler carried out his actions because he and his cronies thought it was good to get rid of anyone that they deemed not GOOD enough to live

 

[RegisDB9]

 

[ManofKent]

if this is true then we have HUGE problem. it means then that these categories only have the meaning we give to them.
And so a society who things its morally acceptable to kill people once they reach age 60 is perfectly justified if it collectively agree this is good.

it means then that a society that think it OK for aged men to marry young girls cannot be condemned because such arrangements are agreed on by the society

personally i reject that and think its DANGEROUS. Hitler carried out his actions because he and his cronies thought it was good to get rid of anyone that they deemed not GOOD enough to live

We already have a problem - some Christians believe in the death penalty, some Christians belief that it is okay to go to war, some Christians would vote for a leader who reduced benefits to the poorest in society.

Religion does not prevent what I would define as 'evil' acts....

 

[double00]

That's a totally different issue. Even as someone that doesn't believe in any deity, I am 100% for reading scripture to consider the character of humanity.

Z is not arguing for creationism so far as i can tell. people get hung up on the temporal bits of genesis for instance but there are decisive - if oblique - positions on the relationship of god people and the environment as part of the moral creation story. if it is a different issue it's because you are reading it that way.

i'm not really into all the willful mischaracterization atheism is perfectly fine but imo often conflates spirituality (holiness) with organization (the secular) and so misses the point almost entirely.

 

[Alexidb]

if this is true then we have HUGE problem. it means then that these categories only have the meaning we give to them.
And so a society who things its morally acceptable to kill people once they reach age 60 is perfectly justified if it collectively agree this is good.

it means then that a society that think it OK for aged men to marry young girls cannot be condemned because such arrangements are agreed on by the society

personally i reject that and think its DANGEROUS. Hitler carried out his actions because he and his cronies thought it was good to get rid of anyone that they deemed not GOOD enough to live

Yet scripture says it’s A-OK to stone women teachers, adulterers, and homosexuals; take slaves and transgressions will be passed to younger generations. These are all ideas that we now soundly reject. The ideas of what is good and just is transmutatble as time passes.

 

[Zamb]

I didn’t misread your post you used a quote from an atheist to further your point that good and evil can only be viewed and understood from a theist point of view. The quote also claimed that good and evil can only be view and realized from a Christian worldview, which I pointed out is demonstrably false. You then asked me to prove it and I did.

no, my argument is good and evil are innate features of people made in the image of the creator, even if some people believe than God did not create them.

I can deny my (biological) father as being my but i cannot erase his DNA from my being. its the same thing.

We already have a problem - some Christians believe in the death penalty, some Christians belief that it is okay to go to war, some Christians would vote for a leader who reduced benefits to the poorest in society.

Religion does not prevent what I would define as 'evil' acts....

Again, I am not having a religious discussion. I am having a philosophical one, and the great struggle i have is the moment you do, then people start to get into discussion religion and the problems in it without seeing the distinction.

But since you went there let me clarify something for you and i challenge you to prove otherwise.

1. Jesus is the central figure of Christianity
2. As presented in scripture he was NON violent
3. The Chief apostle of Christianity is Paul, who was persecuting Christians before his conversion, After he was converted, he became NON violent
4. there is nowhere in the New Testament text, that gives any Christian or any Church a license to commit violent acts
5. Christianity as it ought to be practiced is based on bible teaching, Love for neighbor, respect for human life, following Jesus teachings AND example.
6. What is done in the name if Christianity is very DIFFERENT at time) from what is taught by its founder, that is not a problem of Christianity, but a problem of individuals inability to overcome evils regardless of how they identity........


All in all, you highlight of Problems in Christianity, does not negate my original point, that the moment values of Good and Evil are defined by a society, then there is no universal meaning of the Categories and a dangerous possibility
that one might define it to suit themselves at the detriment of others

 

[dieworkwear]

6. What is done in the name if Christianity is very DIFFERENT at time) from what is taught by its founder, that is not a problem of Christianity, but a problem of individuals inability to overcome evils regardless of how they identity........

Hm, it almost sounds like, in practice, religious interpretations of good and evil are formed by the consensus of societal groups.

 

[Zamb]

Hm, it almost sounds like, in practice, religious interpretations of good and evil are formed by the consensus of societal groups.

one could argue that yes........if the belief is that all religions are human construct and there is no transcendental reality or religion that comes by revelation of God

 

[double00]

Hm, it almost sounds like, in practice, religious interpretations of good and evil are formed by the consensus of societal groups.

the question is not that interpretation happens (it happens LOTS of different ways btw), it is the moral mean that can be ascribed to practice. and of course that practice is inextricably linked to text, ritual, etc that is often pretty static.

 

[conceptual 4est]

So then how do you guys explain the social norms and culture at Grailed dot com?

 

[Zamb]

So then how do you guys explain the social norms and culture at Grailed dot com?

As a moral and philosophical principle, I avoid grailed altogether
Its my categorical imperative to do so....