Rally under your flag- War is upon us! The Great Drape/No Drape Poll!

[T4phage]

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

Sounds like a nickname for a lasered ********.


- B

I believe those are called meat curtains...

 

[nordicstyle]

It's interesting to note that you have been discussing drape for seven pages without explaining what it actually is we should be looking for in these pictures. I for one have no clue. Please, elaborate.

 

[Manton]

Drape has been defined and redefined on the Net many times, but in a nutshell it is a deliberate excess of cloth cut in the chest of a coat to make the body more full and the coat wear with more ease of movement and comfort.

 

[UnFacconable]

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

There are lots of CS people near me...even QI computing people.

- B

I have no doubt that you are surrounded by an army of Quants.

 

[DocHolliday]

Originally Posted by Manton

Drape has been defined and redefined on the Net many times, but in a nutshell it is a deliberate excess of cloth cut in the chest of a coat to make the body more full and the coat wear with more ease of movement and comfort.

I have to admit, I don't get why shoulder extension doesn't = too big.

I have a soft, sweaterlike sportcoat I like to think looks drapey, but secretly I think it's just too large.

These things impede my love of the drape.

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by DocHolliday

On the other hand, how many guys do we have posting really nicely done clean coats? No slight to Yachtie, of course, but there seems to be a critical mass of drape bespeakers. For a long time, there was little bespoke pictured at all, and now the most of it is drapey. If someone came along and started posting his collection of John Steed-esque clean coats, I'd be all over that, and I'm guessing it probably wouldn't be long before we'd see more of it.

Well, my stuff is kind of in the middle in the sense that there's a bit of drape on a swelled chest. The degree of drape is attenuated in the jackets that I have with front cuts, and about the same as IL in the ones with only the underarm cuts.

Iammatt's stuff also varies somewhat in the degree of drape that is there, and some of it is fairly clean. I think the same is true for Foof and Whnay, and with those three we have 95% of the Rubinacci photos posted.

I would say that far more important stylistic element than the drape would be the softness of construction, particularly in the minimal canvassing and unpadded shoulders. These are features independent of the chest treatment, but are associated by history with Scholte-esque jackets. My guy, at least, never discuses "drape," but does talk about "soft tailoring." The whole thing about drape is actually a tangent in fundamental respects.

Aside from Yachtie, Manton and aportnoy, the customers of US tailors seem to shy to post themselves actually wearing their clothes. But, there is a fair bit of Chan posted and I do think that the Drapists are still in a minority even with the filter of Internet imagery. And if you look elsewhere, particularly for RSS's old posts on AAAC, you can see many examples of both soft and hard tailoring...in his case, on the same body.

Originally Posted by DocHolliday

Helps your cause that you drape guys are so chatty too.

Is "chatty" a code word for unemployed?

- B

 

[Manton]

Originally Posted by DocHolliday

I have to admit, I don't get why shoulder extension doesn't = too big.

I have a soft, sweaterlike sportcoat I like to think looks drapey, but secretly I think it's just too large.

These things impede my love of the drape.

A drape coat may have, or may not have, an extended shoulder. The same may be said of a clean coat. It is not a defining characteristic of either style.

I have draped coats that have this, and some that do not. I am on the fence about which I like better. I like a little extension when the shoulder breaks down with wear and falls over the delt. The sooner that happens, the better. I think that extension works well when the drape is distributed more toward the scye. On a more fitted shoulder, drape should be more in the middle, lest it make the chest look puffy and ballooned.

In any event, we are talking about no more than .5" on each side, and even that is a lot. 1/4" to 3/8" will do for most.

I also think that big hips need extension. Nothing looks worse to me than a coat skirt that is wider than, or even as wide as, the shoulders. If you are really huge, then you have no choice. But looking like an egg is not a good look.

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by T4phage

I believe those are called meat curtains...

Once again, we see eye to eye...but let's hope not by the same set of meat curtains.


- B

 

[T4phage]

Amen!

 

[A Harris]

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

All the guys...and I mean all of them...who post in WAYRN in RTW are in clean fronted jackets. The ones who dress well at the top of the charts like you actually have no option to dress in a draped coat, or to feel its typically light contruction realized in the body-conforming art of bespoke tailoring.
This coat, a model that Isaia did 10-12 years ago, is the closest I've ever seen to real drape in a RTW jacket:

Forgive the grin, that is the only decent shot I have of that coat. The chest and shoulders are even softer than they appear in that pic.

 

[jefferyd]

I wonder how much of comfort is purely psychological.

I think you are aware of how I wear my suits. I just got home and changed out of one and into a pair of jeans. Which I hated and took off, feeling that they were stiff and tight and constricting. Someone over in the SW&D forum would probably feel the exact opposite- very comfortable in the jeans which I hate and miserable in the suit in which I feel so comfortable.

 

[Sator]

Originally Posted by Manton

Drape has been defined and redefined on the Net many times, but in a nutshell it is a deliberate excess of cloth cut in the chest of a coat to make the body more full and the coat wear with more ease of movement and comfort.
This is not how A.A. Whife, West End cutter and author of a book on cutting during the great age of drape defines it:

Archibald Whife was President of National Federation of Practical Master and Foreman Tailor's Association and Technical Editor of "The Cutter and Tailor". He authored a book on cutting around the 1930-40's and was chief editor of The Modern Tailor Cutter and Clothier, 1952 which includes much of what is found in his earlier book. It is actually impossible to merely add fitting ease to the chest of a coat without adding to the back panels or without affecting the whole coat.

 

[Manton]

Well, that is how Apparel Arts, my 1936 tailoring guide (don't have the title handy), the chaps at A&S, Bruce Boyer, and Raphael define it.

As to the back issue. I have said this many times, but here goes again. ALL coats need some fullness over the blades in back. You cannot move in a coat that lacks this. Whether a coat is "draped" or not is a matter of the fronts.

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by Sator

Fred Astaire chose drape cuts because he was probably self-conscious about his thinness and was hoping drape would bulk him up. I think it only makes his face look even thinner relative to his body, thus drawing more attention to what the drape is meant to conceal. It looks terrible, if you ask me. Even his dress coats are cut with as much drape in the chest as possible. I think looks odd because it fights against the very nature of the body coat.

Let's be frank. No one makes Scholte's draped suit anymore. There were many things specific and necessary to it that no one executes in full. A&S is an echo, and Rubinacci is an echo with an Italian accent.

Originally Posted by jefferyd

Drape as a stylistic choice is one thing. I don't think drape looks bad, but I don't think it is particularly flattering, either. I have never had a client ask me to make him look ten pounds heavier, which is what drape tends to do.

The silhouette, styling choices aside, should flatter, conceal, enhance..... I have super-wide hips which the strong shoulders help to conceal. I would put someone who had overly strong shoulders in a very soft shoulder. Every jacket should be cut differently according to the client's taste and build. Unfortunately for me, drape has become a hot button because of the "ideal bespoke silhouette" thing, as if any one silhouette could be ideal for everyone, especially one which adds bulk to the frame.

Originally Posted by jefferyd

I wonder how much of comfort is purely psychological.

I think you are aware of how I wear my suits. I just got home and changed out of one and into a pair of jeans. Which I hated and took off, feeling that they were stiff and tight and constricting. Someone over in the SW&D forum would probably feel the exact opposite- very comfortable in the jeans which I hate and miserable in the suit in which I feel so comfortable.

We're lucky in that there is still a variety of tailors from whom to chose. As each day passes, that becomes less true.

All good bespoke makers should be expected to execute a tailored garment that has a comfort and a lightness on the body that comes from the indiviualization of fit. What can be achieved in how well the clothes wear can be startling to someone making the transition from standardized clothes.

That being said, on the same body and done with the same level of talent, it is my belief that a softly tailored garment has an advantage for modern life. Where a structured garment is comfortable, I think that a softer canvass, unpadded shoulders, and yes, a bit of drape in the chest, can be just a tad more comfortable still. I'm not saying that guys walking around in their Huntsman are clanking around in unyielding armour...but I would say that if you imagine that comfort, but then subtract a bit of structure, you might just relent that a structured garment reaches its limits before the softly tailored one.

So many men are uncomfortable in their tailored clothes today. Sometimes it is the fault of the clothes, but it also often the fault of the man and his social fears. If a tad more comfort adds a bit more ease, I cannot help but think that is helpful to looking one's best.

This has little to do with drape per se, except in the sense that the tailors who make draped jackets view themselves not as the inheritors of drape, but the inheritors of soft tailoring.


- B

 

[DocHolliday]

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

Well, my stuff is kind of in the middle in the sense that there's a bit of drape on a swelled chest. The degree of drape is attenuated in the jackets that I have with front cuts, and about the same as IL in the ones with only the underarm cuts.

Iammatt's stuff also varies somewhat in the degree of drape that is there, and some of it is fairly clean. I think the same is true for Foof and Whnay, and with those three we have 95% of the Rubinacci photos posted.

I would say that far more important stylistic element than the drape would be the softness of construction, particularly in the minimal canvassing and unpadded shoulders. These are features independent of the chest treatment, but are associated by history with Scholte-esque jackets. My guy, at least, never discuses "drape," but does talk about "soft tailoring." The whole thing about drape is actually a tangent in fundamental respects.

I've always found it interesting that our drape crowd, for the most part, isn't all that drapey. I often think the drape discussions, perhaps unintentionally, suggest more drape than there really is. As you say, it's more about the soft tailoring, which seems to be the trend both here and the real world.

It's a tricky area. I like a clean chest, but my favorite coats are very soft -- maybe not drape soft, but early '60s soft. Almost no shoulder padding, etc. In that way, I like soft tailoring, but I still wouldn't identify myself as a drape partisan.

Aside from Yachtie, Manton and aportnoy, the customers of US tailors seem to shy to post themselves actually wearing their clothes. But, there is a fair bit of Chan posted and I do think that the Drapists are still in a minority even with the filter of Internet imagery. And if you look elsewhere, particularly for RSS's old posts on AAAC, you can see many examples of both soft and hard tailoring...in his case, on the same body.

I'm not sure I agree. Soft tailoring is talked up endlessly here, but there's very little discussion of the alternative, at least in terms of bespoke. Aside from the Chan stuff, and Yachtie's periodic posts, what do we have to offset Iammatt and his disciples of Rubinacci? The Chan discussion tends to be confined to the Chan threads -- and usually focuses on deviating from the Chan house style -- whereas Rubinacci, he is everywhere.

Personally, I'd love to see some well-done Dege-type tailoring around here, if only for variety. But it would take more than one person posting to counterbalance our rather vocal drape crowd. Not that I don't enjoy the drape posts -- I very much do -- but I wouldn't mind seeing our horizons broaden a bit. I can post only so many Steed pics before I'm driven out of town on a rail.