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Quintessential Knit Ties: Comprehensive Discussion & Appreciation

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Bespoke DJP, Feb 4, 2016.

  1. culverwood

    culverwood Senior member

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    Square end
    7.5 - 8 cm
    all silk
    both
    I have had knit ties from many places and my preferred ones are by Nick Bronson for Liberty of London. I also find Michelsons a source of good value knit ties. Nearly all my knits are solid but I have a blue with red horizontal stripe and a blue/red mixed knot.
     
  2. GusW

    GusW Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I especially enjoy seasonal ties. One of my all-time favorite Fall/WInter knit ties is this charcoal pure cashmere knit from Luciano Barbera. You would never think of wearing it unless there was a chill in the air. Charcoal blends nicely with just about any F/W colored jackets. It has a subtle, elegant style.

    [​IMG]
     
    1 person likes this.
  3. GusW

    GusW Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Another seasonal favorite when Spring arrives is this bubble gum pink and white silk knit from Borrelli. Of course I don't wear it often, but for the right party or dinner with friends it livens up a plain navy blazer or khaki suit, solid white or blue shirt and white pocket square.


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    1 person likes this.
  4. Bespoke DJP

    Bespoke DJP Senior member

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    Hi,

    Thank you for posting here and welcome to this Thread.

    Do you mind me asking if ties from the above vendors are 7.5 - 8.0 cm sharp? As you may have already read, my personal preference is an absolute 7.0cm and I would be more than willing to find out new sources that I could purchase knit ties in this width, especially in London which is a frequent professional destination for me or my wife.

    Although we all enjoy pictures and I am really waiting for any of your future postings, I am intrigued by the two latter ones; could you please post firstly pictures of these, along with pertinent information? Not to repeat myself, but I would appreciate if you could include information such as maker, retailer, dimensions for each tie. I don't ask for material, because you just cited that all your ties are silk!

    Cheers

    Dimitris
     
  5. culverwood

    culverwood Senior member

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    You will find the current Nick Bronson ties at Liberty are 7 cm so good for you.

    Michelson are direct suppliers but half the price and they do a wide variety of widths and patterns.
     
  6. Bespoke DJP

    Bespoke DJP Senior member

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    Hi,

    Thank you for sharing this information with us all.

    I just visited the Liberty's site and checked out all Nick Bronson knit ties which are priced at £38.50 and £40.00; I cannot say the difference between the two lines - they are both 100% silk solid ones - but I reckon some quality / finishing differences might be there. They come at 7cm of width - and I thank you again for this - but fairly long at 1.52m (they have actually made a typo and state 52cm). They also carry some winter ones.

    As I never heard before of this brand, can any gentleman with extended knowledge inform us of the following:
    1. I think NB is merely a retailer (nothing harmful about it!), therefore who is the actual maker of the silk knit ties?
    2. Since there is a great coincidence and NB is based in Milan, Italy - like Sozzi is - might the latter be the actual maker?

    There are two points of consideration though:
    a) I am not certain that the weave is exactly what Sozzi has; if any gentleman - including you dear @culverwood - has silk solid knit ties from both brands, please step in, and
    b) there is one color - deep purple, which is great BTW and in my targets, that does not exist in Sozzi's color palette that can be found on the web. It is the one that I am posting here below:
    [​IMG]

    Best

    Dimitris
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2016
  7. Bespoke DJP

    Bespoke DJP Senior member

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    Dear @GusW

    Thank you for the second set of pictures, I appreciate that they offer a completely different proposition.

    Referring to your Luciano Barbera charcoal winter tie, I couldn't agree more on your points and you may take a look at my post #24. I know that some friends here do not quite agree, but this is not a Thread that everyone has to agree with each other.

    As far as the Borrelli bubble gum pink spring tie is concerned, it is rather bright for my taste - although I have an almost unworn 6-fold Bulgari of a relevant shade, in the back of my drawer - and I can see its use; IMHO the white stripes make it more interesting. It seems slimmer than the charcoal one, true or it's just the angle of the photo?

    Having said that, could you please share some dimensional details of all your posted ties, and should you know on-line or brick-and-mortar vendors that one could enquire about them?

    Best

    Dimitris

    P.S. I don't really believe that there will be any remaining Luciano Barbera, it seems that you've made a massive attack to this brand's knit ties!
     
  8. Sam Hober

    Sam Hober Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I have been reading every post and enjoying this thread.

    Sam Hober (Samantha my daughter) who is now 10 years old and studying different knit weaves after school has been my guide about the pros and cons of different knit weaves.

    To date we have talking about hand knitting and the type of yarn that will work well for knit ties.

    We can make a custom knit tie but it is a very slow process...

    We are also exploring using a knitting machine either here in our new workshop in the mountains outside of Chiang Mai or using an Italian machine.

    I have some questions about the preferences of the gentlemen following this thread. Note I considered direct emails to a few of the posters in this thread with whom I am friendly with but the OP invited me to the thread so I want to see if perhaps there is anything I can add even if it is questions as Sam and I explore the world of knits.


    As a starting point here is a shaped silk knit:


    [​IMG]




    Here is a shaped silk knit with grosgrain silk added to help it sit better under a shirt collar:


    [​IMG]


    1) Is there any preferences for simple "tube" knits over shaped knits? Or would everyone prefer a shaped knit?

    Note a tube knit is basically knitted like a straight sock. The shaped knit has been molded with a wooden mold.


    2) The grenadine weave is typically softer than a knit tie - why would you prefer a knit tie over a grenadine?


    3) Do you prefer a flat end to your ties in general or just for knits?
     
  9. Bespoke DJP

    Bespoke DJP Senior member

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    Dear David @Sam Hober Hi,

    I am honored that, following my invitation, you posted in this Thread.

    Although I waited - as a true host - for other gentlemen to step in, since a day has elapsed I figured that it would be really impolite to leave your valid questions unresponded. Bare in mind, though, that my love for knit ties supersedes my technical knowledge on the subject!

    First of all I don't know if grosgrain silk can be attached to both "tube" and shaped knits and this would lead us to the right answer; to make it clear for everyone - including myself - grosgrain silk is like the one I am posting right below?

    [​IMG]

    In "Neckties: A Discussion Thread" most gentlemen are fond of both grenadines and knit ties at the same time, without exempting some who select one of the two for their collection. I believe that, although close to grenadine grossa as many SFers may claim, knit ties are a different proposition. It's not only the weave, or the shape per se, but rather the "ambiance" of the knit, reminiscent of previous decades. This is exactly why I prefer 7cm of width - a classic width for knits - and always square end. The pointed-end which sometimes requires a wider make-up - like 8cm - is like trying to bridge the gap between "normal" ties and knit ties; but some of us love knit ties exactly because of this "gap".

    Finally, as I mentionned above, I prefer knit ties with square (flat) end. I have already noticed in your exquisite site that you offer a flat-end option in your ties (if I got it correctly), but I think they might look "funny" (sorry!). IMHO, flat-end is the second most distinguishing characteristic of a knit after its straight shape of course.

    I can only hope that all gentlemen here, see your nice post and react accordingly!

    Best

    Dimitris
     
  10. Sam Hober

    Sam Hober Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Dimitris,


    Yes, you should be able to attach silk to both shaped and tube knit ties.

    I can't tell from your photo what type of silk it is.

    Here is an example of a dark red faille silk which may be easier to view (making the photo bigger may help ). Faille and Grosgrain are almost the same both ribbed silks.


    [​IMG]


    Your pointed end and width comments are interesting - thank you. I am not sure if a pointed end would need a wider width.

    Interestingly there actually is a tradition of square end non knit ties. "Rooster" ties are a good example.

    [​IMG]

    So are you saying that you don't like shaped knit ties?
     
  11. Henry Carter

    Henry Carter Senior member Affiliate Vendor

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    Hi Dimitris,

    You shouldn't underestimate how many tie makers there are in Italy, both for regular or knit ties. There really is a lot of them so while I can't say for sure that they aren't sozzi made knits the chances that they are would be fairly small.
     
  12. Bespoke DJP

    Bespoke DJP Senior member

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    Dear David @Sam Hober Hi,

    Thank you again for your invaluable input. Since one can attach silk, which BTW I think it's the proper thing to do, to both types, then other factors should be critical here: needless to say that I am waiting with anticipation for further discussion on the subject! Leaving on the side for the moment the technical aspects of the matter, which would be the aesthetic difference of the two production methods to the final product? Only if someone would have the opportunity to see, feel IRL a product of both methods would he/she be able to make an informed decision. How fortunate are we that we have you guys in our companion!

    "Rooster" ties are an interesting, yet specific, event-related proposition, not for everyone and certainly not for everyday! Knits, on the other hand, certainly are!

    As far as the width of the pointed-end knit ties is concerned, I think I wrote that sometimes requires a wider make-up, so practically we are saying the same thing here. Just to state a few examples, as I always try to do, The Armoury sports Sozzi silk solid pointed-end knits at 7cm whereas square-end knits are at 6cm and 6.5cm of width, while Cordone1956, an Italian maker/vendor (I dunno anymore!) from Rome offers (rebranded Sozzi-made) zigzags (and previously solids and tone-to-tone) again at 7cm of width. At the same time, NMWA has selected Sozzi silk tri-color and birdseye, and cotton all pointed-end ones to be made at 8cm wide; I estimate that apart from the aesthetic element, the two former materials "need" further width. Greg (@gdl203) is always welcome to step in and give us his precious opinion on the matter.

    Finally, I did not certainly say that I dont't like shaped knit ties, my mere point as I mentioned above, is that we commoners can hardly be in the position to unequivocally decide which method is the best; all we can do is perhaps having preferences in final products where other factors are involved as well!

    Best

    Dimitris
     
  13. Bespoke DJP

    Bespoke DJP Senior member

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    Dear Jason Hi,

    Actually I have no knowledge of the size of the tie-making market, so the least that I do is to underestimate it (especially someone who in his professional career used to do company valuations and you need industry/market estimates to do that!); I am only exploring things here.

    It would be nice though, if down the line we could find things, that especially for us amateurs provide a useful set of information (who makes what, who provides whom, etc); I personallly find it quite interesting!

    Best

    Dimitris
     
  14. Sam Hober

    Sam Hober Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    "Finally, I did not certainly say that I dont't like shaped knit ties, my mere point as I mentioned above, is that we commoners can hardly be in the position to unequivocally decide which method is the best; all we can do is perhaps having preferences in final products where other factors are involved as well!"

    Dimitris,

    From my point of view everyone's style choices are equal.

    So there are no "commoners" in the fashion world.

    When my father was young and in the fashion business in New York in the 1960s, even though the business was much bigger then (in New York) people were friendlier and helped each other get started. They shared sources of fabric and finance and so on.

    Some of that group of people became the big names of today but to me their views are just as important as yours and all our current customers.

    Which is why I like to ask questions about preferences...

    "...which would be the aesthetic difference of the two production methods to the final product?"

    If you asking about the addition of woven silk - it is added to the thinner part that goes under a dress shirt to help make the total look neater and more elegant.

    For a shaped tie you can have the collar part of the tie be thinner so it nicely fits under the collar but the front of the tie is nice and full. The narrow end that ends up under the front of the tie can be just a bit narrower than the front so that again it is a clean neat look.

    I am not a fan of a "natural' Italian look - I think business clothes should look professional and elegant but fade into the background and not be to noticeable.

    If you are going to a social event perhaps having more fun with colors, designs etc can work well.
     
  15. Bespoke DJP

    Bespoke DJP Senior member

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    Dear David,

    I am enjoying more and more our conversation here. It's a pity that fellow SFers have not yet grasped this opportunity and exchange opinions.

    What is unknown to me - and perhaps to so many gentlemen as well - is not the addition of the woven silk (grosgrain) or anything, which is an indifferent matter really since as you wrote it applies to both methods, but rather how the "tube" knits will look like, and this in comparison to the shaped ones.

    I think that all gentlemen in SF know specific things about their beloved knits: if they (the ties) produce a nice, durable knot, how match do they stretch, how is their hand, texture, if the gents receive compliments, etc, etc, but they - including myself - do NOT know if their RTW tie from say Drakes, Sozzi, Calabrese1924, Gallo, or whoever are produced via the one or the other method. If I was asked, I would say that my Sozzi knit ties are shaped knits; true or false? I don't really know!

    As far as elegance is concerned, I totally agree with you. I suspect - and I am betting that this is neither easily nor frequently said here in SF - that a number of malproduced ties and their obvious errors are "baptized" spezzatura!

    On a more food-for-the-next-time note, can you post, should you have, pictures of "tube" knit ties and shaped knit ties so that this would be clear to everybody?

    Thank you again for this correspondence,

    Cheers

    Dimitris
     
  16. Claghorn

    Claghorn Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    @Sam Hober

    I have a few knits where the grosgrain lining is an issue. It was stitched along the long sides but not along the short ends, so that it snags when I tighten the tie. These knits rarely get worn as a result. But for the most part, I prefer the grosgrain provided it is well attached (as it is in your example).

    I think the preference for knits over grenadines lies in the casualness of knits.

    I prefer pointed, but there are others, such as Jason at Henry Carter, who prefer square end and argue that it is a part of a knit's charm. For me, pointed gives it a bit of leeway in terms of length. Flat ends cut off so abruptly it drives me nuts if it doesn't hit just at the belt line.

    Shaped over sock all day. I think they hang a bit better (speaking only of silk) and just look better constructed.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2016
  17. Sam Hober

    Sam Hober Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Dimitis,

    You have a photo of a shaped knit now non shaped knits are simple tubes - nothing complicated - just one even width.

    I don't know about Scozzi ties but again it is easy to tell if the ties are shaped.

    Unless you are talking about low end Chinese ties or something like that most ties are basically made correctly. The difference between a low and high end luxury tie is in the materials used and the amount of slow careful handwork. Many tiemakers claim to make handmade ties but...

    Also when you contract out tie production you will almost never get really high end luxury ties as you won't have the production control that is needed.
     
  18. Sam Hober

    Sam Hober Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Claghorn,


    "I think the preference for knits over grenadines lies in the casualness of knits."

    I wonder if the perceived casualness is cultural?

    "Shaped over sock all day. I think they hang a bit better (speaking only of silk) and just look better constructed.'

    The shaped knits are better constructed but some prefer the tube construction again I wonder is that cultural.


    In summary some prefer a simple tube and some prefer a shaped knit.

    For width again there is variation.

    The flat vs pointed ends is another difference.

    So there is no one knit preference and we have not even touched upon fabric or design.

    For Sam and I we will continue to research and experiment and when we are able to make custom knits with accuracy and speed we will start making them.

    Meanwhile technology is improving very quickly and tube knits can be made quickly and the colors/designs can be digitally produced easily once you learn how to use the software.
     
  19. Bespoke DJP

    Bespoke DJP Senior member

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    Dear David Hi,

    I couldn't imagine that "tube" knit ties are indeed just a rectangular! Since this is the case and the shaped knits are like the one that you posted, then my personal preference is certainly for these, which can always be an elegant proposition. So, no tube knits and no chiinese ties (I don't really know where did this come from!), only quality shaped knit ties of different materials and color combinations.

    Speaking of materials, I fully understand that our fellow SFers have a particular preference in silk, and just cashmere / wool for wintertime, however what about cotton for summertime? To tell the truth, if the cotton tie has rich texture, one could use it in colder periods as well matched with tweeds, flannels, heavy fabrics in general.

    I am waiting for your next comments / opinions on either materials, design, or else.

    Best

    Dimitris
     
  20. Bespoke DJP

    Bespoke DJP Senior member

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    Dear @Claghorn Hi,

    Thank you for your comments and endorsement!

    Just to ask you, is this tie that you posted:

    [​IMG]

    This one that I found on NMWA's Tumblr from November 2013?

    [​IMG]

    Waiting for your response,

    Best

    Dimitris
     

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