• We would like to welcome American Trench as an official Affiliate Vendor. American Trench is a Philadelphia based outerwear, apparel, and accessories brand, making all of its products in the United States at (mostly) family owned factories. . Please visit the American Trench thread and welcome them to the forum.

  • STYLE. COMMUNITY. GREAT CLOTHING.

    Bored of counting likes on social networks? At Styleforum, you’ll find rousing discussions that go beyond strings of emojis.

    Click Here to join Styleforum's thousands of style enthusiasts today!

** Quintessential Crockett & Jones Thread ** (reviews, quality, etc...)

BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes

Distinguished Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Messages
4,988
Reaction score
26,075
On the matter of C&J Shell Cordovan footwear, one thing I love about this range is how light weight they are when compared with other high end makes. I don't know how C&J achieve this, since they use the same Horween shells as other makers, but it is something I like very much.
I've wondered the same about why certain companies are able to charge less than others for cordovan. In terms of Horween's cordovan grades, there isn't much (if any) variation between what a RTW GYW company uses and what a Bespoke maker uses. I believe only Alden (also AE but not as well versed in their prices) offers a more inexpensive option on cordovan footwear than CJ.
 

JFWR

Distinguished Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2020
Messages
4,260
Reaction score
6,668
I've wondered the same about why certain companies are able to charge less than others for cordovan. In terms of Horween's cordovan grades, there isn't much (if any) variation between what a RTW GYW company uses and what a Bespoke maker uses. I believe only Alden (also AE but not as well versed in their prices) offers a more inexpensive option on cordovan footwear than CJ.
Horween sets a minimum non sale price for cordovan and c and j charge more as they just add it on to their base price.
 

BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes

Distinguished Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Messages
4,988
Reaction score
26,075
Horween sets a minimum non sale price for cordovan and c and j charge more as they just add it on to their base price.
I was referring to the markups for cordovan that companies assess on their products.

Of course, no one will ever be as cheap as Alden or AE (really any local maker) as there are no import fees. Those two, particularly, also have sweetheart deals which keep their cordovan prices down.

CJ, compared to a Lobb or EG for instance, barely mark up for cordovan. In fact, off the top of my head within Europe and Asia, I can't think of a company that charges less for their cordovan usage. This is relatively speaking as other companies either charge more or less than CJ does for their footwear in general.
 

shoefan57

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2020
Messages
201
Reaction score
218
I was referring to the markups for cordovan that companies assess on their products.

Of course, no one will ever be as cheap as Alden or AE (really any local maker) as there are no import fees. Those two, particularly, also have sweetheart deals which keep their cordovan prices down.

CJ, compared to a Lobb or EG for instance, barely mark up for cordovan. In fact, off the top of my head within Europe and Asia, I can't think of a company that charges less for their cordovan usage. This is relatively speaking as other companies either charge more or less than CJ does for their footwear in general.
I agree with this. For example Edward Green charge £1500 for a shoe Crockett and Jones charge approximately £790 for. Same Horween uppers and both with Oak Bark tanned soles. There is something essentially better about EG shoes but nonetheless twice the price seems odd.
 

BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes

Distinguished Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Messages
4,988
Reaction score
26,075
I agree with this. For example Edward Green charge £1500 for a shoe Crockett and Jones charge approximately £790 for. Same Horween uppers and both with Oak Bark tanned soles. There is something essentially better about EG shoes but nonetheless twice the price seems odd.
Yes EG, to my eye, makes a better looking shoe. I don't believe anything is inherently better, but the aesthetics (with regards to lasts) certainly make them look more expensive.

As you mentioned though, them actually being that much more expensive is dubious. I guess if they look the part of appearing expensive might as well be expensive. 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

The False Prophet

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2006
Messages
961
Reaction score
112
I spotted these on the Instagram of a store in Australia:


No idea what they are and I couldn't find anything similar online. Does anyone know? That looks like a rather chiselled toe - 348 last maybe?
 

shoefan57

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2020
Messages
201
Reaction score
218
Yes EG, to my eye, makes a better looking shoe. I don't believe anything is inherently better, but the aesthetics (with regards to lasts) certainly make them look more expensive.

As you mentioned though, them actually being that much more expensive is dubious. I guess if they look the part of appearing expensive might as well be expensive. 🤷🏻‍♂️
I think the difference is more than that. EG insoles are better than C&J and there is more comfort under the foot. The heel cups are more sculpted on EGs. Whether all that justifies twice the price I don’t know. I suspect much of the price difference is down to the fact that EG is a much smaller factory than C&J therefore needs higher margins to keep going.
 

BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes

Distinguished Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Messages
4,988
Reaction score
26,075
I think the difference is more than that. EG insoles are better than C&J and there is more comfort under the foot. The heel cups are more sculpted on EGs. Whether all that justifies twice the price I don’t know. I suspect much of the price difference is down to the fact that EG is a much smaller factory than C&J therefore needs higher margins to keep going.
I don't really find my EG's any more comfortable than my CJs. Could the insoles be better? Don't know. I'd have to measure out the thickness and check those components pre-production or cut up a pair of each (something I'd rather not do).

I could see the heel being scupltued more which would be a lasting detail. That sort of corresponds to my last (shape not time) comment.

I suppose there's the added labor cost for the addition of reinforcement along the toe box walls, final lasting step (which EG does by hand), handsewn stitch of a Dover, inclusion of leather heel stiffeners, and more hands on during the finishing process.

I'd suggest the primary difference in price might be associated with the increase in GGs and JLs prices. Theirs went up so since we are just as good as them, we may as well raise ours as well. 🤷🏻‍♂️
 
Last edited:

Mr_Spud

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2020
Messages
822
Reaction score
1,208
I don't really find my EG's any more comfortable than my CJs. Could the insoles be better? Don't know. I'd have to measure out the thickness and check those components pre-production or cut up a pair of each (something I'd rather not do).

I could see the heel being scupltued more which would be a lasting detail. That sort of corresponds to my last (shape not time) comment.

I suppose there's the added labor cost for the addition of reinforcement along the toe box walls, final lasting step (which EG does by hand), handsewn stitch of a Dover, inclusion of leather heel stiffeners, and more hands on during the finishing process.

I'd suggest the primary difference in price might be associated with the increase in GGs and JLs prices. Theirs went up so since we are just as good as them, we may as well raise ours as well. 🤷🏻‍♂️
I mean inflation is a real thing so that could be it, but to your point the question is where the nearly doubling of price comes from.
 

BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes

Distinguished Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Messages
4,988
Reaction score
26,075
I mean inflation is a real thing so that could be it, but to your point the question is where the nearly doubling of price comes from.
Right. Inflation affects all makers (everyone TBF). Everyone has raised prices including CJ. EG being double the price of CJ is the question. We can also extend a similar query about JL's & GG's prices. Someone can correct me about GG though, since I do not know all of their varying price points across their lines.
 
Last edited:

shoefan57

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2020
Messages
201
Reaction score
218
Edward Green use an even higher stich count per inch on their soles than C&J and have told me that they source their leather from such small tanneries that C&J couldn’t get their leather from same tanneries as they could supply C&J with enough skins.

I think there are reasons (in the making) to explain price differences but I also think that the reasons for the pricing of English shoes is shrouded in mystery to some extent. The hardest to explain is where our discussion began; Horween Shell Cordovan footwear by both companies.
 

BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes

Distinguished Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Messages
4,988
Reaction score
26,075
Edward Green use an even higher stich count per inch on their soles than C&J and have told me that they source their leather from such small tanneries that C&J couldn’t get their leather from same tanneries as they could supply C&J with enough skins.

I think there are reasons (in the making) to explain price differences but I also think that the reasons for the pricing of English shoes is shrouded in mystery to some extent. The hardest to explain is where our discussion began; Horween Shell Cordovan footwear by both companies.
Is that what they said about the leathers? Haha. That's funny.

You are correct in that they use a higher stitch count (should be 12 SPI) than CJ (about 8 SPI).

Yes, the Horween price difference is a doozy. I still prefer EG over any other English maker, but their pricing is, as I mentioned, dubious.
 

shoefan57

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2020
Messages
201
Reaction score
218
Is that what they said about the leathers? Haha. That's funny.

You are correct in that they use a higher stitch count (should be 12 SPI) than CJ (about 8 SPI).

Yes, the Horween price difference is a doozy. I still prefer EG over any other English maker, but their pricing is, as I mentioned, dubious.
It’s good to have your input and very interesting to have your expertise. They remain my favourite English maker too but, like G&G and JL, their pricing does seem overdone. To be fair to them they are cheaper than either of those two and I prefer them but nonetheless…….
 

Featured Sponsor

How Often Do You Buy New Clothing?

  • 1-5 times a year

  • 6-10 times a year

  • Once a month

  • 2-3 times a month

  • Weekly

  • Almost daily


Results are only viewable after voting.

Forum statistics

Threads
479,123
Messages
10,216,470
Members
214,807
Latest member
tubularstructure
Top