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question for the under 25 set

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by globetrotter, Sep 4, 2009.

  1. Dewey

    Dewey Senior member

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  2. Dedalus

    Dedalus Senior member

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    I think that it is becoming less and less common.

    You must be lucky then. My boy's a real dick, but I guess he's only 2.
     
  3. globetrotter

    globetrotter Senior member

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    I recently picked up Shirley Brice Heath's Ways With Words: Language, Life and Work in Communities and Classrooms, which studies a group of working class white kids and a group of working class black kids. You might find it interesting. John McWhorter mentioned it in a column, so I thought I'd try to read it.


    http://www.amazon.com/Ways-Words-Com.../dp/0521273196

    A a matter of pedagogy, there are ways to design an inclusive, cooperative, and egalitarian classroom.


    thanks, I'll get it
     
  4. globetrotter

    globetrotter Senior member

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    Private school. I went through a public school system like you describe, and I would not put my kids through the same--if I had the choice.

    My kids are in an integrated & diverse private school. The students come from nearly all economic backgrounds, and many have single parents. The student body is even portions of African American, Indian American, and white kids. But none of these kids are deprived of parental attention. And all the parents want a strong academic environment for their children. And it's all peace and harmony on the playground. The boys do play rough some times, but not to express hatred or genuine antagonism. Your bully's behavior would never be tolerated in this environment.


    first of all, I am happy with the level of academics at the school district, they have very good enrichment programs and the 50% of the parents who are more supportive provide a good enviroment.

    just as important, if not more important, I am happy with the level of economic as well as racial diversity. I don't need my kid to grow up in harmony, life isn't about harmony.

    I learned more at school from dealing with bullies than I did from the teachers. I don't mind hatred and antagonism on the schoolyard, if they teach my son stuff.
     
  5. tiecollector

    tiecollector Senior member

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    Fighting should be a last resort, you don't want to turn him into a bully. Telling the teacher isn't productive always though because in life there is nobody to tell (and we all know vigilante justice is the best kind anyways). If the other kid can't take a hint though, sometimes force is the only thing that people understand. And if the school principal has a problem with it, then kick his ass during parent teacher night. [​IMG] Also, I don't know about the part about kicking the kid when he is down. I know some kids who got in fights in the rich neighborhoods and their parents sued each other. When I was in school in a pretty bad part of town by anyone's standards. Fights were common place. In short, if this is a nicer neighborhood, you will be sued if your kid wins, throws the first punch, or somehow hurts the self esteem (or various street cred) of the other kid.
    Private school. I went through a public school system like you describe, and I would not put my kids through the same--if I had the choice. My kids are in an integrated & diverse private school. The students come from nearly all economic backgrounds, and many have single parents. The student body is even portions of African American, Indian American, and white kids. But none of these kids are deprived of parental attention. And all the parents want a strong academic environment for their children. And it's all peace and harmony on the playground. The boys do play rough some times, but not to express hatred or genuine antagonism. Your bully's behavior would never be tolerated in this environment.
    Anyone who goes to this school will succumb to some sort of gambling addiction (or other vice) when life slaps them in the face and they don't add up to what their textbooks say.
     
  6. Asterix

    Asterix Senior member

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    yeah. there are two ways of looking at fighting - people who fight fair are, essentially, looking at fighting as a recreation. then there are people who fight because they have to, get the job done, and dont do it again unless they have to. I would rather my son belong to the later group. my son is a nice, gentle, intellegent kid, with a whole shitload of friends. kids who were in a class with him two years ago invite him to their birthday parties. I am not worried about his being a decent person, and we invest time and effort in his being a decent, healthy, well rounded person. school started on monday. for 3 days this week a kid in his class has been picking on him. my son has gotten him to stop, temporatily, with a little mild violence. I am not raising my son to do things in half meassures. so, yeah, you ask if I have a problem with my son kicking a kid when he is down? I don't. it is a lot more effective to kick a kid when he is down that to kick him when he is standing, unless you are really flexible. you know those kids who come to school in high school and shoot people? you know why they do it? because they were picked on for 10 years. I would rather my kid bloodies this bullies nose and teaches others not to fuck with him, so that he can get on with life.
    You don't have to defend your stance and everybody doesn't have to support your views. I would advice my son to do the same because I did the same as a kid (I started Shotokan early enough) and it kept the bullies off me. They all actually wanted to be buddies with me after seeing their "best" beaten up. All he needs to do is give the biggest bully in the school one full fledged beat down and others would back off because they'll get the message.
     
  7. texas_jack

    texas_jack Senior member

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    the fights I got into at school happened after school off of school property.
     
  8. IUtoSLU

    IUtoSLU Senior member

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    Here is the answer:


    Tell your kid to approach the teacher sometime when they are alone. Then have him tell the teacher thant the kid is picking on him and he wants it to stop. Then he should tell the teacher that if the kid doesn't stop picking on him by the end of the week, he is going to beat the kid up.

    If there is no change by the end of the week, give your kid the go-ahead to beat the kid up in a very public space.
     
  9. Dewey

    Dewey Senior member

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    Anyone who goes to this school will succumb to some sort of gambling addiction (or other vice) when life slaps them in the face and they don't add up to what their textbooks say.
    OK, thanks. Comments like this are why we shouldn't discuss these things on the internet. I'll convince myself you failed at being funny and move on.
     
  10. connor

    connor Senior member

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    at my HS they have a "you throw, you go" policy. so even if its self defense, you get taken up and probably get suspended for a day or something. ive been in a couple fights AT school, but for the most part people keep it quiet unless its like in the quad. people get on me i'm not gonna let them think they're bigger... idk. most of the fighting in HS happens after school anyways

    kids should fight.
     
  11. Mr T

    Mr T Senior member

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    I taught my daughter from an early age that she has a natural right to defend herself and that schools can't take away that right. If someone physically assaults her I will support her regardless of any politically correct punishment a school district tries to apply.
     
  12. JLibourel

    JLibourel Senior member

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    I'd encourage a young son of mine to punch out a bully or trouble maker, but encouraging him to kick him when he was down strikes me as excessive.

    Back in my day we had some notions of "fair fighting" versus "dirty fighting." Fair fighting at school seldom brought about official repercussions. Dirty fighting (kicking, strangling, gouging) probably would have. I think that was a better era.

    I know when I was in England 45 years ago, giving someone the boot in a fight was likely to get you in trouble with the law if an injury resulted--much more probably than anything resulting from fisticuffs.

    I don't know what the laws are about this in California. I do know that our laws governing self-defense with weapons are surprisingly permissive--probably a legacy of our Gold Rush past.
     
  13. Mr T

    Mr T Senior member

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    I don't know what the laws are about this in California. I do know that our laws governing self-defense with weapons are surprisingly permissive--probably a legacy of our Gold Rush past.
    Unfortunately, school district policy rarely follows state law regarding self defense. Texas has arguably the most permissive Castle laws in the Union. Yet, in my daughter's school district, ANY fighting (to include self defense) would result in a suspension. I venture CA schools are similar. I remember oftentimes becoming friends with the boys I fought. Of course, in the 1970's there was no concept that the other kid might return with a gun and start shooting.
     
  14. Teger

    Teger Senior member

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    there's a middle ground between being a bitch and taking shit and fighting. there are other ways to get back at this kid.
     
  15. SField

    SField Senior member

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    You know, him beating up this one kid isn't going to stop anything. I think you've seen too many bad prison movies or something. He's in grade 2 man. Unless he really knows how to hit someone, it's just going to be a little shoving match with some tumbling around till the fight gets stopped 3 seconds later by a teacher.

    School doesn't just work like "o wow, that kid punched out the other kid, let's not fuck with him". Unless your child unscrews the metal container that holds shavings from the pencil sharpener or uses a fucking stapler to pistol whip the kid, it isn't really going to do much. In all likihood it will breed more animosity and lead to more fighting.

    My question is why, if your kid has all these friends, is this kid able to bully your son? The whole deal of a bully being a loner in my experience doesn't exist. Usually it's the cool kids picking on the fat/nerdy/dork kids. People with friends, unless it's a sort of minority group (as in the 'nerds' etc..) don't really get picked on. If your kid is being picked on now, it is extremely likely that even if he beat this one kid up, he'd be picked on a month from now. One incident in grade 2 isn't going to change shit. In fact, every weirdo I ever knew who got picked on like crazy had at least one incident where they went totally apeshit and fucked up some jock/'cool kid' or whatever. That didn't alter any perceptions whatsoever and didn't prevent teasing in any way.

    So in conclusion, I must ask how the hell is this kid able to bully your son? In a normally functioning school yard hierarchy, the bullying kid, if your son was popular or had any kind of group of friends, would be ostracized and himself severely bullied. Gym class, recess and school trips being the obvious venues. So my conclusion is either that your son is in fact far lower in the social hierarchy than you think, or that this is a complete anomaly that defies every convention ever.
     
  16. ConcernedParent

    ConcernedParent Senior member

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    In elementary and middle school, the consequences are very mild. Detention, loss of recess, suspension if its particularly bad. In high school though, a dumb decision could really screw up College. I'd say let him go for it, the lesson he will learn is too valuable..... unless he gets his ass kicked.

    You know, him beating up this one kid isn't going to stop anything. I think you've seen too many bad prison movies or something. He's in grade 2 man. Unless he really knows how to hit someone, it's just going to be a little shoving match with some tumbling around till the fight gets stopped 3 seconds later by a teacher.

    School doesn't just work like "o wow, that kid punched out the other kid, let's not fuck with him". Unless your child unscrews the metal container that holds shavings from the pencil sharpener or uses a fucking stapler to pistol whip the kid, it isn't really going to do much. In all likihood it will breed more animosity and lead to more fighting.

    My question is why, if your kid has all these friends, is this kid able to bully your son? The whole deal of a bully being a loner in my experience doesn't exist. Usually it's the cool kids picking on the fat/nerdy/dork kids. People with friends, unless it's a sort of minority group (as in the 'nerds' etc..) don't really get picked on. If your kid is being picked on now, it is extremely likely that even if he beat this one kid up, he'd be picked on a month from now. One incident in grade 2 isn't going to change shit. In fact, every weirdo I ever knew who got picked on like crazy had at least one incident where they went totally apeshit and fucked up some jock/'cool kid' or whatever. That didn't alter any perceptions whatsoever and didn't prevent teasing in any way.

    So in conclusion, I must ask how the hell is this kid able to bully your son? In a normally functioning school yard hierarchy, the bullying kid, if your son was popular or had any kind of group of friends, would be ostracized and himself severely bullied. Gym class, recess and school trips being the obvious venues. So my conclusion is either that your son is in fact far lower in the social hierarchy than you think, or that this is a complete anomaly that defies every convention ever.


    Bullies tend to pick on easy targets, those who 'actually' fight back and defend themselves are probably less likely to get shit on.
     
  17. skyman

    skyman Senior member

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    In my school if you had a fight, even if the other kid was totally asking for a good punch, you'd be suspended for about two weeks, and if you beat the other kid up to badly their parents would probably bring criminal charges against you, although I never knew anyone who actually got convicted or interviewed. Do it to many times and you'd probably be looking at expulsion.

    But if he's only in second grade the consequences probably won't be to bad, more of a tap on the wrist, just aslong as he doesn;t make a habit of beating other people up.
     
  18. lemonade

    lemonade New Member

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    well, that is the first choice of action. we will see how it works. my wife spoke to the gym teacher,who is a friend and who is on the playground during recess. apperently the other boy is a problem for a lot of kids.

    The solution is to have your child secretly approach all the other kids who have been picked on by this bully. Have him meet with them in a secret location somewhere to form a detailed strategy on how to lure said bully into an isolated location with no more than 2 points of egress. Once the plan has been formulated, make sure each member has the plan fully memorized and execute it to perfection. Said bully will be lured and trapped into predetermined location. All the other kids will jump out from hidden locations (dumpsters, trash cans, etc) and beat the living daylights out of said bully. And to top it off they will give him a massive wedgie. Make sure to let the bully know that any future retaliation will be met with an even stronger show of force. This form of physical defeat and humiliation is necessary to whip him into shape so that he can be a model 2nd grader in the future. Hopefully it's not too late.. this usually work best in kindergarten or 1st grade. This will not only hopefully address the situation, but also provide an opportunity for your kid to bond with others in his age group and allow him to form long and lasting friendships for life.
     
  19. Matt

    Matt Senior member

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    when I was 7 or 8, a kid called Dino used to push me around. My mother complained to the school....Dino got in trouble, and i was a little whiny bitch hiding behind mummy. Bullying increased. My dad told me to hit him. I did. A scuffle ensued that was promptly broken up by teachers before a definitive result was reached. Dino never bothered me again, which in its own way, is a definitive result. Incidentally last I heard he was a professional soccer player who married the model that lived three doors down from me, so I guess he turned out OK too [​IMG]
     
  20. globetrotter

    globetrotter Senior member

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    You know, him beating up this one kid isn't going to stop anything. I think you've seen too many bad prison movies or something. He's in grade 2 man. Unless he really knows how to hit someone, it's just going to be a little shoving match with some tumbling around till the fight gets stopped 3 seconds later by a teacher.

    School doesn't just work like "o wow, that kid punched out the other kid, let's not fuck with him". Unless your child unscrews the metal container that holds shavings from the pencil sharpener or uses a fucking stapler to pistol whip the kid, it isn't really going to do much. In all likihood it will breed more animosity and lead to more fighting.

    My question is why, if your kid has all these friends, is this kid able to bully your son? The whole deal of a bully being a loner in my experience doesn't exist. Usually it's the cool kids picking on the fat/nerdy/dork kids. People with friends, unless it's a sort of minority group (as in the 'nerds' etc..) don't really get picked on. If your kid is being picked on now, it is extremely likely that even if he beat this one kid up, he'd be picked on a month from now. One incident in grade 2 isn't going to change shit. In fact, every weirdo I ever knew who got picked on like crazy had at least one incident where they went totally apeshit and fucked up some jock/'cool kid' or whatever. That didn't alter any perceptions whatsoever and didn't prevent teasing in any way.

    So in conclusion, I must ask how the hell is this kid able to bully your son? In a normally functioning school yard hierarchy, the bullying kid, if your son was popular or had any kind of group of friends, would be ostracized and himself severely bullied. Gym class, recess and school trips being the obvious venues. So my conclusion is either that your son is in fact far lower in the social hierarchy than you think, or that this is a complete anomaly that defies every convention ever.




    yeah, I'm not sure bullying is the right term.

    in my son's school it usually comes down to kids who pester other kids - I guess pester is the right term rather than bully. and it usually comes down to socio economic divide more than anything else. some kids don't seem to be figuring out how to handle school, and so spend a lot of thier time tryiing to distract the other kids. this other kid was pinching my son repeatedly in line for lunch, and was spending recess crowding him. last year there were a couple of kids who acted simlarly: the teachers are very aware of who they are, and they bother most of the kids in the class who are trying to lean and who fit in. I am guessing that they will figure out the system a few years late, rather than not at all.


    and I don't picture a situation where my son beats him down and then everyone in the school is scared of him. I've seen 40-50 pound boys fight. that's why I'm not worried about my son going overboard, I don't think that he can actually do any physical damage to the other boy. but I don't want him thinking in terms of swinging a few punches or slaps and not trying to go all out.


    more importantly, its how he reacts to life later - if he lets people pick on him because he's scared or doesn't know how to deal with it, then it will establish a pattern.

    what actually happened this week was that my son slapped the kid in line after the kid pinched him, and for a couple of days had quiet.
     

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