Protect Ya Neck: Shirt Collars, Knots and Balance

[gimpwiz]

When I was fourteen, I got a token-poor-kid scholarship to a prep school. In august we started pre-seasons. When the coach said that we dress in a shirt, slacks, and tie for away games, I thought he was pranking us freshmen - he was not. I had to ask how to tie a tie. I got shown the four-in-hand starting with the wide end on the left of my body. That's how I have been doing it ever since, and I don't know if my muscle memory would allow it otherwise. Not at all a practical reason, just how life happens.

 

[comrade]

9.5 CM is a great all around width for wide lapel jackets and broader body structures.


I like to go with a 10cm/4 inch width for DB jackets and other single breasted jackets that are worn primarily buttoned(Closed). I don’t like too much open chest space with a buttoned jacket.

Just a personal preference and not perfect solution nor answer for everyone.

For Neapolitan type jackets that are often times worn open I prefer a 9cm/3.5 inch width.


fyi, my standard lapel width is 4.5 inches.

"9.5 CM is a great all around width for wide lapel jackets and broader body structures."

I never thought of it that way. But I am only 5'9" , 165 but wear 44R, Lapel width 3.75-4.0

BTW, eBaY has wide ties, often new. Haven't seen one in shops for more
than a decade.

 

[ValidusLA]

I think that you are over estimating the value of symmetry in this context.
- Agree, humans seem to enjoy symmetry, especially facial symmetry.
- There is some data that shows that humans enjoy symmetry in nature, especially vertical symmetry.

However, by the very mores of this forum, we know that symmetry is not and indeed cannot be a hard and away positive.
- If symmetry is always to be chased, why do so many of us like the FIH and DFIH?
- If symmetry is always to be chased, why ever wear a pocket square?
- If symmetry is always to be chased, ticket pockets would be an "always no."
- If symmetry is always to be chased, should we not have breast pockets on each side?

I'm not trying to discount the value of symmetry, but it is not always desirable. Demonstrably.

 

[ValidusLA]

To aid in this discussion, since i apparently am willing to flash my mug for this thread, today I specifically wore an outfit I deem to be....suboptimal.

This shirt is Proper Cloth w/ a "Presidential Semi Spread" collar. It does avoid the issue of points not underlaying jackets by changing the pitch. However, I would argue this collar does not suit my face the way a point collar (especially a bespoke sized one like CEGO's in my first post does).

This "Pres Semi Spread" is far less spread than PC's (or others) actual spreads, and I imagine those spread would look even less optimal on me.

Expanding into sub optimal land. This jacket is OTR from Spier. Its def doesn't fit me like a bespoke jacket, but its .....fine. It is illustrative of how a wider guy w/ a wider face is suited with wider lapels (which this jacket does not have).

The tie is Drake's grenadine. Also, only as wide as they sell (9cm or so). Not my favorite size, but damn is it a nice color.

 

[breakaway01]

Expanding into sub optimal land. This jacket is OTR from Spier. Its def doesn't fit me like a bespoke jacket, but its .....fine. It is illustrative of how a wider guy w/ a wider face is suited with wider lapels (which this jacket does not have).

To tie this back to the thread the @Jmr928 tried to revive it's fascinating to me how different the two jackets look on you. The Spier is exactly "fine" to me too. There is nothing obviously wrong with how it fits. But your other jacket just looks...better. It's not just the wider lapels. The shoulders and chest look a little more structured? fuller? May also be camera angle, etc too.

Anyhow I continue to wonder, when I find an item of tailored clothing that fits me 'fine', whether there is something else out there that would look better. Not so much that it bothers me, but this is why I prefer to try different makers rather than stick with one (at least at this time).

 

[ValidusLA]

To tie this back to the thread the @Jmr928 tried to revive it's fascinating to me how different the two jackets look on you. The Spier is exactly "fine" to me too. There is nothing obviously wrong with how it fits. But your other jacket just looks...better. It's not just the wider lapels. The shoulders and chest look a little more structured? fuller? May also be camera angle, etc too.

Anyhow I continue to wonder, when I find an item of tailored clothing that fits me 'fine', whether there is something else out there that would look better. Not so much that it bothers me, but this is why I prefer to try different makers rather than stick with one (at least at this time).

I tried to get the angle similar, but it's not exactly there, you're right.
Still, the truth is it just doesn't fit me as well. It doesn't suit my shape, either in face or body.

Partly I think as a person my face, hair, size does not look "relaxed", and S+Ms shoulders def try to look relaxed.

Angles and not having a face in shot make this discussion less valuable. Reference:

Spier jacket. Charvet tie. Proper cloth shirt. Looks so much more svlet though! Lol

 

[BlairW]

Ok I have an important question. When you tie a four in hand, do you start with the wide end of the tie on your left side or your right side? I have always started with wide end on left, but I have no idea why. It results in a knot that angles slightly towards the jacket breast pocket.
View attachment 1882937
I've tried to tie the same knot with the wide end starting on the right and muscle memory literally won't allow me to do it. I'm right handed, in case it matters.

That's a pleasing looking combo. I start with the wide end on the right.

I like a semi-spread collar, with a length of around 9-10cm, and use a FIH or double FIH knot. I like to pull my knot pretty tight, and have it sitting slightly to one side. Couldn't find many of my fit pics, but this one is fairly pleasing to my eye

 

[JohnMRobie]

To tie this back to the thread the @Jmr928 tried to revive it's fascinating to me how different the two jackets look on you. The Spier is exactly "fine" to me too. There is nothing obviously wrong with how it fits. But your other jacket just looks...better. It's not just the wider lapels. The shoulders and chest look a little more structured? fuller? May also be camera angle, etc too.

Anyhow I continue to wonder, when I find an item of tailored clothing that fits me 'fine', whether there is something else out there that would look better. Not so much that it bothers me, but this is why I prefer to try different makers rather than stick with one (at least at this time).

+1. It is wild how different that Spier cut makes you look @ValidusLA.

@breakaway01 - I was in the same boat. I pretty much tried everything. There are some I like more than others. I have been really happy with the Neapolitan stuff I’ve been wearing. The only downside is my other suits are taunting me as they sit in my closet. That being said I’m also excited to try a different iteration of a drape cut. I’m doing a NxNW inspired suit. Unfortunately I started to have the crazy idea that maybe it would be fun to make a Neapolitan one and the same cloth and tweak a few details from my standard cut with that maker and do a side by side. I’m a sick person.

 

[blewnote1]

Turns out I can’t find my one crunchy knit tie that ties tiny knots to use as an example I think I may have tossed it so that one is missing from the equation. But I quickly tied up some various tie knots in an attempt to sort of visualize the change in look.

First up is a Hermes printed silk tie.
Standard four in hand. Too small I think, out of balance. View attachment 1882587
Double four in hand. Better, fills more space in both width and height.
View attachment 1882588
Half Windsor. Shockingly similar to the DFIH. I had to double check I didn’t accidentally post the same picture twice.
View attachment 1882589
Woven silk
Four in hand. I like this ratio.
View attachment 1882590
Half Windsor. Ok but I think takes up too much space.
View attachment 1882591
Windsor. Too large for my face and for my collar. Not a fan.
View attachment 1882592

Too big or too small I think looks "off" to me and the best choices are more moderate and balanced.

Also I am horrified to see what Instagram is going to show me but I spent some time going through in an effort to not roast some random person or guys on the forum so I stuck with influencers or ads since I couldn’t find my small knit tie.

I think this small knit tie looks bad with this spread collar here. Reminds me of 2010. I assume there is a pair of tan double monks paired with this combo that we can’t see.
View attachment 1882626
Same tie with a button down balances much better though.
View attachment 1882627
A classic combo we all see at probably every wedding ever. The full Windsor tied poorly with a small collar, not sitting against the collar band. 0/10 Friends don’t let friends wear this fit. This guys stylist did him dirty
View attachment 1882628
This is an interesting one with respect to points and spread and how it can provide the illusion of how we view someone’s face.

Here we can see a semi-spread collar with longer points. Face looks oval shaped and the knot balances well.
View attachment 1882630
And with a club collar that has shorter, more rounded points and a steeper angle and touch less spread. His face looks a bit more circular. This is also why I’m not sure we can write any rules about it. It has a good balance with the tie but the shape and angle I don’t think works as well - It isn’t bad but I prefer the other.
View attachment 1882631
A friend suggested that this really is one of the benefits to working with a shirt maker (or I’d add an excellent sales associate for RTW.) Similar to what @ValidusLA mentioned. They are able to direct you to collars that may work with your face and take some of the guess work and trial and error out of it.

It also is one of the difficult aspects of ordering a shirt remotely from an MTM company. I get all the options but none of the feedback and am left to determine what I like on a mannequin and how that might translate to what works for my face. So I get stuck with a bunch of choices but am left to fend for myself in figuring out what works.

Eh, I like them both in different ways. In fact, in some ways I think the club collar looks better. It has a more playful character for me, which goes well with the suit. To each their own!

 

[blewnote1]

I think this is a very interesting discussion, kudos to JMR928 for starting it!

To my eye, I think the most important thing is that the tie knot harmonize with the collar style, and secondarily that the collar style suit the face.

I'll try to dig up specific examples from the Esquire fashion plates I love to browse, but a quick glance reveals plenty of instances where the collar points do not touch the lapels, where the collar angle is different from the lapel, where the collar style is not what one would suggest for the particular face... but always the tie knot looks balanced in the collar and the outfits look stellar.

I think that the collar point style can certainly be more or less harmonious with different face types, but that what appears to be more pleasing is more a function of what is fashionable at the time and what you are used to seeing.

 

[pasadena man]

Nice topic, what Bruce Boyer called the tie-collar-coat nexus. Meaty thread, kudos to Jmr for starting it.

This is the kind of thread DWW mourned the dearth of before he went on hiatus.

Although why he would prefer having 120 K social media followers and sparring with Rudy Giuliani versus going a couple of pages of back and forth with The Chihuahua on SF is beyond me.

 

[pasadena man]

Partly I think as a person my face, hair, size does not look "relaxed", and S+Ms shoulders def try to look relaxed.

[/QUOTE]
This. Thanks for explaining to me why I can wear Northern Italian tailoring, but not relaxed Southern Italian tailoring. I am not a relaxed person. Wearing Neapolitan tailoring would create cognitive dissonance. I am not usually going for the subliminal “What is vaguely wrong with this picture?” impression.

 

[JohnMRobie]

I think this is a very interesting discussion, kudos to JMR928 for starting it!

To my eye, I think the most important thing is that the tie knot harmonize with the collar style, and secondarily that the collar style suit the face.

I'll try to dig up specific examples from the Esquire fashion plates I love to browse, but a quick glance reveals plenty of instances where the collar points do not touch the lapels, where the collar angle is different from the lapel, where the collar style is not what one would suggest for the particular face... but always the tie knot looks balanced in the collar and the outfits look stellar.

I think that the collar point style can certainly be more or less harmonious with different face types, but that what appears to be more pleasing is more a function of what is fashionable at the time and what you are used to seeing.

I think there’s an important distinction between what is optimal for our faces/bodies and what we like or brings us joy and our taste. They sometimes align but that isn’t always the case.

I have no issues with a club collar but think they look better on guys with longer, more oval shaped faces. The short, rounded points that tend to be slightly less spread I think round off peoples faces.

This isn’t dissimilar IMO from tailoring in that certain styles of tailoring just don’t flatter the wearer regardless of how good a tailor is.

 

[willyto]

I only wear Spearpoint collars, Club collars or Tab collars with four in hand knots. Double four in hand know if the tie is too long.

I don't like spread collars although at work I'm required to wear one with the uniform (Black suit)

 

[hpreston]

Ok I have an important question. When you tie a four in hand, do you start with the wide end of the tie on your left side or your right side? I have always started with wide end on left, but I have no idea why. It results in a knot that angles slightly towards the jacket breast pocket.
View attachment 1882937
I've tried to tie the same knot with the wide end starting on the right and muscle memory literally won't allow me to do it. I'm right handed, in case it matters.

I think from a purely knot trying perspective, it shouldn't matter if you start with wide end on the right or left, it will just end up (as you state) with the knot slightly off center in one direction or the other.

My habit is wide end on my right side to start....