Probably embarassingly basic denim Q

[denimdestroyedmylife]

if vertical fading occurs because of ringspun warp yarns, wouldn't all jeans fade in this way? why do eternal 811s fade vertically more dramatically than, say, APCs or RRDS?

 

[Arethusa]

Almost all jeans do fade this way. Any ringspun denim will, anyway, including cheaper stuff like 1969s and J Crew made from Kurabo. Hell, I've seen this on (cheap) Levi's. There's a silly obsession with using Japanese terms (most often by people who don't know the language) to describe these effects, as if they're somehow unique to Japanese jeans. APC and RRDS don't do this as dramatically assumably because APC and Nudie don't order their denim woven as slubby. In terms of fabric quality, it's about as meaningful as selvage.

 

[denimdestroyedmylife]

i have never owned a pair of jeans that fade vertically the way my eternal 811s do. it is as if one vertical strand out of 10 fades before the rest. my RRDS were stripey, but in wider bands.

our use of japanese terms comes from looking at japanese color falling diaries; i have not encountered many such sites from english-speaking countries, and when i have, they are very new and borrow the japanese terms. the way that japanese denim otakus obsess over jeans is unique and we've all benefitted from that.

 

[Arethusa]

Eternal denim is more aggressive with it than most, but the phenomenon is basically the same on a pair of 811s as it is on a pair of $40 Levi's.

 

[denimdestroyedmylife]

are not $40 levis OE x OE, therefore would NOT fade vertically, if vertical fades are a ringspun phenomenon? i work with a gentleman that wears $40 levis, and the fade he has going on is not "vertical" but rather diffuse. in any case, you have helped me focus the question----what does Eternal do with 811s that causes more vertical fading than what occurs on Nudie RRDS (which are also ring/ring jeans)? EDIT: i just reread the "vertical falling" section of denim-gallery.heavy.jp the google translation is doing my head in, but it sounds like the two factors of vertical fading are: the depth of the dying and the variations of warp thread thickness. dying: warp threads that are twisted more tightly are not dyed as deeply to the core as loosely twisted threads, and the tighter twist yarns will fade faster because of this. when tightly twisted weft threads are interspersed with loosely woven threads, the tightly woven threads will fade and reveal their white core more quickly and will yield a stripey effect. thickness: as ringring stated, the variation in thread thickness will cause a vertical fade as well. the threads that are thicker will fade faster than the thinner threads because they are more prone to abrasion. i guess eternal uses a combination of tight/loose & thick/thin threads to make what we call "structure denim" am i close?

 

[will_i_am]

edit.
read the whole thread.
everything i think.
ddml has already thought.
hmmmm.
so now all i will say
is i want 811's.

 

[LA Guy]

As ringring already said, the vertical fading is due to uneveness of the yarn. I've also found that looser woven denim is more likely to have this even than tightly woven denim, and that LHT denim generally has more vertical fading than RHT denim, all other things being equal.

 

[Arethusa]

Originally Posted by denimdestroyedmylife

are not $40 levis OE x OE, therefore would NOT fade vertically, if vertical fades are a ringspun phenomenon? i work with a gentleman that wears $40 levis, and the fade he has going on is not "vertical" but rather diffuse. in any case, you have helped me focus the question----what does Eternal do with 811s that causes more vertical fading than what occurs on Nudie RRDS (which are also ring/ring jeans)?
$40 Levi's are open ended. You can get variegated vertical fading without slubby ringspun yarns by making open ended yarn slubby, and it's basically fake ringspun with none of the durability, quality, and softness of real ringspun yarn. As for Eternals, presumably they just have the warp yarn spun to be slubbier and less uniform. Doesn't take much more than that. Nudie, on the other hand, does not. [edit : fixed]

 

[denimdestroyedmylife]

ummm...

if a vertical fade is a matter of the irregularities of the warp yarn, the twill (whether left/right/broken/whatever) should be irrelevant.

 

[Arethusa]

It is irrelevant. Take a look at the picture of Lucky Strike's Slim Jims from the beginning of this thread:

Originally Posted by Lucky Strike

 

[thereverend]

Even my $40 Levi's 501XX are doing this ever so slightly, but they are only 4 months old (washed twice). I also have some 527's that are much more dramatic. My Gap denim jacket also exhibits this effect, as well as a pair of Gap jeans (1969) that may be ringspun, I can't really tell, but from the looks of the denim they are quite slubby and very soft. The warp threads are very uneven on these. Anyway, if you look close up at any denim that does this, or at least when I do, the yarn that is really light vertically definitely sticks out much further and appears to be much looser, whereas the dark yarn is much tighter and further "in" the weave.

 

[beefcake]

since i dont understand half of what you guys are saying (NO HABLA) i post my own explanation (or more of a description) of the 811 phenomenon wich in my oppinion can't be compared to the one in the pics of the OP.

Originally Posted by thereverend

Anyway, if you look close up at any denim that does this, or at least when I do, the yarn that is really light vertically definitely sticks out much further and appears to be much looser, whereas the dark yarn is much tighter and further "in" the weave.

i agree with this.
exzibit A (photo enhanced by NASA):

in the red thing; see how the white warp thread apears thicker or maybe looser and the weft broader (or maybe looser in this case too) than the other. there is a tendency if looking close just between the H and the I in "clothing" (button) to the left aswell. they poke out above the rest of the denim and will be worn "first"/the most/differently- when rubbed against something. ofcourse it wont do much right THERE but imagine it on a leg. those warp threads are often like that all the way through the fabric too, from hem to where they end.

how (and why) it occurs i don't know. I CALL UPON THEE

RING
x
RING
!!!!!!

:rain dance: :sacrifices seven kittens and two virgin goats:

 

[cheapmutha]

^^ in the picture above, the larger white spaces is actually caused by a thicker warp passing under the weft.

the thicker the warp, the more it sticks out from the surface of the denim and the faster it will wear.

think of it like this.... if you want vertical falling/fading/stripey beautifullness, you need to have warp yarns of varying thicknesses, but not necessarily slubby. if you use a regular(non slubby) yarn, but of varying thickness across the width of the fabric, you will have a regular stripey pattern. if you just use very slubby yarn, you will have an irregular vertical pattern, with the fading starting at the biggest slubs.

another way to look at it, think of a record. paint it white. now take a peice of sand paper and start to sand it. the paint will come off first at the peaks of the groove, which is like the thickest warp yarns, and will stay in the valley of the groove, which is like the thinnest warp yarns.