Porsche Cayman: Your thoughts thus far?

[A Y]

Originally Posted by Soph

Nothing like facts over bravado. BMW designs can't touch Porsche, let alone what is 16 LeMans wins.

By that measure, we should all go buy Corvettes or Audis.

--Andre

 

[A Y]

Originally Posted by Soph

Although I'd still go the convertible route, if you simply want performance
I would add active suspension, the larger wheels (always love the look also) and tires (grip), and the Sport Chrono package and get a car that will lap as fast as a stock 911 S and yet cost less than a stock 911 Carrera.

I'm wondering how you know such a package would be faster than a 911.

--Andre

 

[imageWIS]

Originally Posted by Andre Yew

By that measure, we should all go buy Audis.

--Andre

Hey!

Jon.

 

[skalogre]

Originally Posted by Andre Yew

I'm wondering how you know such a package would be faster than a 911.

--Andre

I believe that would be partially due to the better balance of the Cayman versus the rear-engined 911 plus I remember reading somewhere about Porsche's own numbers showing the car being very close in lap times to the 911. Need to find the article again.

 

[A Y]

Originally Posted by skalogre

I believe that would be partially due to the better balance of the Cayman versus the rear-engined 911 plus I remember reading somewhere about Porsche's own numbers showing the car being very close in lap times to the 911. Need to find the article again.

I believe that, but it's not clear to me that adding bigger wheels, harder suspension, and upping the rev limiter will make the difference. I'm wondering if that's pure conjecture.

--Andre

 

[A Y]

Originally Posted by imageWIS

Hey!

And thank goodness that's not the measure. The last thing I need is a German Honda Accord.

--Andre

 

[skalogre]

Here is one article... http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...911/stats.html

"A lap of the Nordschleife is long, some 12.9 miles, and Porsche tells us that a standard Cayman S completes the circuit in eight minutes and twenty seconds, just five seconds slower than a 911 Carrera. It's not a big difference, yet the Cayman S makes its way around the track with a completely different style. It slashes through corners as if it were a hologram from Gran Turismo 4, so obedient to the steering that it follows the racing line in demanding corners such as the sequence at Ex-Mühle ("water mill") almost effortlessly."

 

[imageWIS]

Originally Posted by skalogre

I believe that would be partially due to the better balance of the Cayman versus the rear-engined 911 plus I remember reading somewhere about Porsche's own numbers showing the car being very close in lap times to the 911. Need to find the article again.
This argument reminds me of the 911 / 912 problem when the 911 came out. To replace the 356 Porsche decided to make the 911, a more expensive, faster and considerably rear-heavier car than the 356. The 911 used a flat-6 instead of the 356’s flat-4, which added significant weight to the 911, and resulted in Porsche adding dead weights in the front corners of the car to offset the added rear weight. Since the transition from 356 to 911 was so great price-wise and the car was not as nimble as the 356 due to the added weight, Porsche decided to offer a model called the 912, which used the 356’s flat-4 (which was a tried and tested engine) and which came with fewer features, which lowered the price significantly, in addition to handling better than the 911 due to the weight reduction. This caused the 912 to outsell the 911. The Cayman is a mid-engine car, which can handle better than the 911 in principle due to its layout (although, lacking a LSD makes the 911 a winner in this category) and its weight distribution...there is a very good reason why top-end supercars are almost all mid-engined (Carrera GT, Enzo, McLaren F1, Bugatti Veyron, etc…) Also the Cayman weighs less than the 911, and costs less as well. Personally, if I was in the Porsche 911 buying market I would seriously consider a well-stocked Cayman, especially if I was going to get the 6-speed and not the tiptronic (although if Porsche ever starts to use a DSG…). Jon.

 

[skalogre]

Originally Posted by imageWIS

This argument reminds me of the 911 / 912 problem when the 911 came out. To replace the 356 Porsche decided to make the 911, a more expensive, faster and considerably rear-heavier car than the 356. The 911 used a flat-6 instead of the 356's flat-4, which added significant weight to the 911, and resulted in Porsche adding dead weights in the front corners of the car to offset the added rear weight.

Since the transition from 356 to 911 was so great price-wise and the car was not as nimble as the 356 due to the added weight, Porsche decided to offer a model called the 912, which used the 356's flat-4 (which was a tired and tested engine) and which came with fewer features, which lower the price significantly, in addition to handling better than the 911 due to the weight reduction. This caused the 912 to outsell the 911.

The Cayman is a mid-engine car, which can handle better than the 911 in principle due to its layout (although, lacking a LSD makes the 911 a winner in this category) and its weight distribution...there is a very good reason why top-end supercars are almost all mid-engined (Carrera GT, Enzo, McLaren F1, Bugatti Veyron, etc...) Also the Cayman weighs less than the 911, and costs less as well.

Personally, if I was in the Porsche 911 buying market I would seriously consider a well-stocked Cayman, especially if I was going to get the 6-speed and not the tiptronic (although if Porsche ever starts to use a DSG...).

Jon.

Same here - although the temptation for an RS4 would be great at that point

 

[Soph]

Originally Posted by imageWIS

This argument reminds me of the 911 / 912 problem when the 911 came out. To replace the 356 Porsche decided to make the 911, a more expensive, faster and considerably rear-heavier car than the 356. The 911 used a flat-6 instead of the 356’s flat-4, which added significant weight to the 911, and resulted in Porsche adding dead weights in the front corners of the car to offset the added rear weight.

Since the transition from 356 to 911 was so great price-wise and the car was not as nimble as the 356 due to the added weight, Porsche decided to offer a model called the 912, which used the 356’s flat-4 (which was a tired and tested engine) and which came with fewer features, which lower the price significantly, in addition to handling better than the 911 due to the weight reduction. This caused the 912 to outsell the 911.

The Cayman is a mid-engine car, which can handle better than the 911 in principle due to its layout (although, lacking a LSD makes the 911 a winner in this category) and its weight distribution...there is a very good reason why top-end supercars are almost all mid-engined (Carrera GT, Enzo, McLaren F1, Bugatti Veyron, etc…) Also the Cayman weighs less than the 911, and costs less as well.

Personally, if I was in the Porsche 911 buying market I would seriously consider a well-stocked Cayman, especially if I was going to get the 6-speed and not the tiptronic (although if Porsche ever starts to use a DSG…).

Jon.

--- Bingo! This is my thinking.
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PS ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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I was just taking a jab at BMW for fun and to stir the pot.

Styling is always a matter of preference taste, Porsche and BMW don't make that similar of cars IMO. BMW is more like a luxury brand / auto whereas Porsche leans towards driving/racing heritage and the thrill of driving moreso than the luxury ride of a BMW. Yes, we know they put powerful M's in sedans. Porsche is just not into horsepower, they understand agility, balance, etc

 

[SGladwell]

I've not driven one, but it has the same inexcusably cheap interior as the Boxster. Even worse, most of the ones I've seen on a Porsche dealer's lot have had that same noxious bottle-tan orange leather color that bothered me on the NC Miata. Fake-n-bake must be the trendy interior color this model year just as it's apparently the favored skin tone of Germans right now. To make matters worse, frankly the quality of Porsche's hides are scarsely better than those on the NC I drove. Also, one mustn't forget that it weighs well over a ton-and-a-half. While that's not unexpected from a once proud sports car company that is now a lowly truck-marketer with a minor sideline in gran tourismos, is it really too much to ask for Porsche to invest some of the blood money from that nasty-ass rebadged MAN-alike into some meaningful R&D for their new $60,000+ (and plus and plus, this being a car with Porsche's typically hefty options list) sportscar? Such a thing really ought to be built from something more sophisticated than a porcine steel monocoque. After all, Lotus has managed to create a car in the same market of considerably lower mass while likewise meeting EU/NCAP safety specs including pedestrian standards, having all the dumbass froo-froo options like nav, and using with running gear likely of similar mass (turbo + plumbing vs. two extra bores). Actually, the comparison is quite telling: 2006 Lotus Europa S vs. 2006 Porsche Cayman Wheelbase: 91.75" vs. 95.1" Length: 153.5" vs. 172.1" Width: 72.8" vs. 70.9" Height: 44" vs. 51.4mm Curb weight: 2195 lb vs. 3200lb (Lotus data from here, with conversions estimated. Porsche data from here. So yeah, the Cayman is a little bigger than the Europa S, and probably for the better - the Europa probably can't touch the Cayman's cargo volume, with its two trunks, for example - the only way it could be a full half ton worth of bigger is if there were ten tons less innovation put into it. Or the truck-marketer has simply stopped caring about sports cars. A 2500lb modern Cayman, even with the ****** fake-n-bake leather, would lure me to the showroom and maybe force a call to my broker, but a 3100lb lead balloon is just yet another crappy, overweight, overwrought modern. PS: On the vintage Porsche digression, I 'd almost rather have a really, really good 550 replica than the real thing. Something that beautiful and that lithe I'd want to drive, so I'd appreciate modernization of the brakes and and other components as well as the lower cost of a modernized fuelie Beetle engine. The only 550 replica I've driven was by Beck and was actually made in South America somewhere. Argentina or Brazil I think. The glasswork was far nicer than anything I've seen on a Viper, XLR, or Corvette, with tighter gaps and an impeccable finish. The visible welds on the frame were also beautiful, quite unlike the sloppy mess one sees upon opening the hood of a Viper or BMW M Roadster. 'Course, I've never driven a real 550 to compare, but that was one of the coolest cars I've ever been in. And it was going really cheap, too: less than my MINI Cooper S ended up costing me. However, I needed a daily driver that could go to the grocery store and fit a garment bag in back, so the Beck (like a Panoz AIV I probed at about the same time that occupied my every waking thought for about a week and a half) was just a momentary infatuation.

 

[briancl]

Originally Posted by imageWIS

Personally, if I was in the Porsche 911 buying market I would seriously consider a well-stocked Cayman, especially if I was going to get the 6-speed and not the tiptronic (although if Porsche ever starts to use a DSG...).

If I were in the 911 buying market, I think I'd consider a Cayman, but only after giving it a year or two to see how it really performs. But, I don't see myself ever being in that market. I love the 911 for many reasons, heritage, performance, styling, and the philosophy of the car, but I'm no longer hugely impressed with Porsche's offerings. I'll echo SGladwell and say they are just too heavy. Too many gadgets and trick suspension features and this and that. Porsche really caters to a 'enthusiast' who just wants a toy with gadgets. I don't see the cars are drivers machines anymore. The Cayman, at its lower price point has a few less gadgets, and they outfitted it sans front LSD in order to make the driver feel more connected (so they say, the LSD makes the car feel sloppy), but I don't know what to believe.

Also, off topic, imageWIS, I've reads a number of your posts, and I can tell you are pro-DSG. I'm not a huge fan, but I'm curious enough.. .so what cars would you consider quality cars with a DSG? My girlfriend is torn between manual and auto for her next car, and I just can't think of a good DSG that fits her other requirements.. (needs space, but no SUV, so probably a wagon. good styling, budget upwards to 50k or so)

 

[imageWIS]

Originally Posted by briancl

If I were in the 911 buying market, I think I'd consider a Cayman, but only after giving it a year or two to see how it really performs. But, I don't see myself ever being in that market. I love the 911 for many reasons, heritage, performance, styling, and the philosophy of the car, but I'm no longer hugely impressed with Porsche's offerings. I'll echo SGladwell and say they are just too heavy. Too many gadgets and trick suspension features and this and that. Porsche really caters to a 'enthusiast' who just wants a toy with gadgets. I don't see the cars are drivers machines anymore. The Cayman, at its lower price point has a few less gadgets, and they outfitted it sans front LSD in order to make the driver feel more connected (so they say, the LSD makes the car feel sloppy), but I don't know what to believe.

Also, off topic, imageWIS, I've reads a number of your posts, and I can tell you are pro-DSG. I'm not a huge fan, but I'm curious enough.. .so what cars would you consider quality cars with a DSG? My girlfriend is torn between manual and auto for her next car, and I just can't think of a good DSG that fits her other requirements.. (needs space, but no SUV, so probably a wagon. good styling, budget upwards to 50k or so)

Next Audi A4 (B8 body) Avant (Audi-speak for wagon), since the current B7 can't have the DSG installed, due to the placement of the engine.

Jon.

 

[briancl]

Originally Posted by imageWIS

Next Audi A4 (B8 body) Avant (Audi-speak for wagon), since the current B7 can't have the DSG installed, due to the placement of the engine.

Jon.

ya, unfortunately she has to purchase before her lease is up in sept. right now i've got her sold on the s4 avant, but she can't decide between the manual or auto...

 

[imageWIS]

Originally Posted by briancl

ya, unfortunately she has to purchase before her lease is up in sept. right now i've got her sold on the s4 avant, but she can't decide between the manual or auto...

Personally I would go for the 6-speed. The auto is good, but its not DSG.

Jon.