Pls explain European universities to me

[Etienne]

Originally Posted by holymadness

To compensate, the French have created the system of 'les grands Ã

coles', elite institutions that are extremely exigent in terms of who they recruit and brutal in terms of curricula and workload.
Actually, the system of "Grandes Écoles" was created much before the democratization of universities (end of the 18Th-early 19th century).

They are indeed extremely exigent in terms of who they recruit, but the workload once you are in is OK. The bulk of "grandes Ã

coles" consist of two categories: ingeneering schools and business schools. There are others, of course. To get in, you need 2 or 3 years in a special preparatory program after high school, where you work you ass off. Then there is a national anonymous exam which will determine which schools you get.

Sciences Po and ENA are special cases. Sciences Po is not really a "grande Ã

cole", it's something like a mix of a university and a "grande Ã

cole". ENA recruits people after a master, and has a special status that I won't detail here.

 

[PaulSLH]

In the UK, at least at undergraduate level, fees for 'Home Students', i.e those that have lived in the EU for at least three years prior to applying for university, are subsidized by the government, so that the maximum paid by the student is around £3000 per year. Foreign students have to pay the full £14,000-£17,000 per year.

There are very few 'private' universities, and at those, everyone has to pay full fees of (generally) £14,000-£17,000. One example is the Architectural Association. However, I think it's a bit different to the US. We have no public universities in the same vein as those in the US, which, by my understanding are funded, and run, by the State? Here all universities are largely independent, but do receive some government funding.

Poorer families will receive a government grant, rather than a loan to pay for tuition, as well as a maintenance grant for living costs. There are also some bursaries and scholarships paid for by different universities for academic achievement (fairly rare), and for economic hardship (more common), as well as some for sporting achievement (very rare, and often looked down upon, particularly by the more academic institutions).

Admissions are probably just as hard as in the US, possibly more so since university is accessible to everyone. Admission will look at A-Level and GCSE (school) exam results and a personal statement, and may set extra tasks depending on the course and institution (entrance exams, interview, portfolio). Oxbridge are generally the most difficult academically, although for some courses the top University of London colleges may have even higher admissions requirements, and often the universities one tier down from Oxbridge (London, Durham etc.) may have more people applying per place than Oxbridge, 20-30 per place is not uncommon.

I believe the system is very similar across the EU, since all EU students can study in any country in the EU as 'home' students, paying only the same fees they would in their own country, rather than the much higher foreign student fees.

 

[holymadness]

Originally Posted by Étienne

Actually, the system of "Grandes Écoles" was created much before the democratization of universities (end of the 18Th-early 19th century).

They are indeed extremely exigent in terms of who they recruit, but the workload once you are in is OK. The bulk of "grandes Ã

coles" consist of two categories: ingeneering schools and business schools. There are others, of course. To get in, you need 2 or 3 years in a special preparatory program after high school, where you work you ass off. Then there is a national anonymous exam which will determine which schools you get.

Sciences Po and ENA are special cases. Sciences Po is not really a "grande Ã

cole", it's something like a mix of a university and a "grande Ã

cole". ENA recruits people after a master, and has a special status that I won't detail here.
Interesting, and I stand corrected. Why not detail it here? And what are some examples of 'real' grandes Ã

coles?

 

[ysc]

Originally Posted by crazyquick

Or, are US universities 'better', and that's why they cost more?

Also, during one of the UK elections, I remember some student shouting at Tony Blair about 'top up fees' and how that was a big election issue.

Better is kind of a hard term, different rating systems have radically different scales, which sometimes give slightly silly results. Certainly more US universities are in the top 100 world unis than any other country I think, and certainly compared to UK universities US ones generally have much more money and thus better facilities.
So for example something like an fmri scanner which might be quite rare at UK universities (too expensive) might be fairly common in the US, certainly only a few universities here have them whilst I should think a large number of the better US universities with psyc departments will have one. We certainly have a few universities here which achieve on a par with the top US universities in the international rankings (maybe the same number of top unis per capita?) and I think most europeon countries have at least a couple.
Also, frankly for an undergrad or even most postgrads having an fmri scanner or a particle accelerator or whatever makes very little difference.

Top up fees, if someone else has not explained it already are the fees people pay to go to university here, they are "top up" because the rest is paid for by the government. Most students get a zero interest loan (which you only have to repay once you are earning over a certain threshold) to pay these fees and their living costs, the dept they end with it tiny compared to the dept most americans seem to get from going to college.

There are academic differences also, at least in the UK people specialise much earlier - there are not general education requirements you pretty much just focus on what would be your "major" in the US, although these is a bit more general education in Scotland.

 

[GlenCoe]

I think there are even some states of EU where University is paid fully by the state. And students only pay their own expenses + dorms etc...
But you can guess how decent eduction you will get there

 

[ysc]

Incidentally, interest sparked by this thread I looked at the QS world top universities list, it gives a pretty eccentric selection and order of universities some pretty average universities over the top quality LSE here in the UK and although I can't be as sure about the order of the US colleges some of them look pretty out of order too.

 

[Etienne]

Originally Posted by holymadness

Interesting, and I stand corrected. Why not detail it here? And what are some examples of 'real' grandes Ã

coles?
I did not think anybody would be interested.

Here are the most prestigious grandes Ã

coles (it's a quick and subjective list, of course).
Ingeneering: Polytechnique (nicknamed "X"), Centrale, Mines, Ponts
Business: HEC, ESSEC, ESCP
Others: ENS*
* : ENS (École normale supÃ

rieure) is a school designed to train researchers and professors in all disciplines (mtahs, physics, literature, economics...). The humanities section of ENS is about the only grande Ã

cole for people with a humanities background (as I said earlier, most grandes Ã

coles are ingeneering schools or business schools). Since all disciplines are represented, it does not fit in the usual categories.

As I said, ENA is a special case. It's a public school whose stated aim is to recruit civil servants (there are others, but this is the most prestigious one). Therefore, there are certain types of civil servants whose main recruitment takes place out of the ENA alumni. Another consequence: the school is not only free, you get paid during your training (you are considered a civil-servant-in-training). This is also the case in a handful of other public grandes Ã

coles (ENS, Polytechnique, etc.).

 

[crazyquik]

Back to Justin's point, this is sorta a welfare state question.

There are a lot of people in the US with, nearly, crushing student loan debt. That debt is unique in the US debt system; it's basically non-dischargeable in bankruptcy.

There are some who thinks the federal government (which backstops a lot of this debt) should forgive it. Obama mentioned something to that effect in his state of the union.

Also, these loans carry interest on them. I was really surprised to see that in the UK they were interest-free.

It just doesn't seem like our current system is sustainable.

 

[frederik_jon]

In Denmark university is free and you get money while you are studying.
The downside of that is that we pay MAAD tax.
There are some educations with certain requirements but mainly they are
all reachable, but there is also alot of studies with kinda low requirements.

 

[Tangfastic]

Originally Posted by crazyquik

Also, these loans carry interest on them. I was really surprised to see that in the UK they were interest-free. It just doesn't seem like our current system is sustainable.
I'm just old enough to have received a student grant, and was one of the first years to be allowed student loans - the UK loans are certainly not interest free though are on far more leniant terms than market rates. Also, we are suffering grade inflation here too, so while A level results are still the main component of acceptance, Universities are increasingly looking for other criteria to make selections. These are still intended to be based on academic merit, aptitude and suitability for the course. I think in Scotland there are still no University fees and undergraduate courses tend to be 4 years rather than 3. When I was studying for my Masters we had a few Canadian students as our Masters are 1 year rather than 2 and paying international rate fees for one year was cheaper than 2 of Candian home fees.

 

[dpw]

oh, i see... the government pays, subsidizes or it's free, how nice.

were do taxpayers fit in this equation?

 

[holymadness]

Originally Posted by dpw

oh, i see... the government pays, subsidizes or it's free, how nice.

were do taxpayers fit in this equation?
You pay higher taxes. In exchange, you get near-free university education and no student debt. Not a bad deal in a world where you need a degree to be a secretary.

 

[JustinW]

Originally Posted by Tangfastic

I think in Scotland there are still no University fees and undergraduate courses tend to be 4 years rather than 3

Sounds like the American system in Scotland? Where you have to take a heap of little courses in everything from physical education to civics and history outside of your major.

The Australian system is modeled on the Brit style, I think. Typical for a BA or B.Econs. degree you are looking at 4 year-long units in first year, 6 half-year units in 2nd year and 4 half-year units in the final year (unless you are invited to do a 4th Honours year).

 

[PaulSLH]

No, Scotland is the sames as England, except you specialize even earlier, leaving school at 17 and doing a 4 year degree, whereas in England you leave school at 18 and do a 3 year degree.

 

[PaulSLH]

Originally Posted by dpw

oh, i see... the government pays, subsidizes or it's free, how nice.

were do taxpayers fit in this equation?

Graduates on average earn more than non-graduates, so they pay more tax, so they pay for their own education through their taxes. It just means that rather than being saddled with huge amounts of debt when you're young and not earning much, you pay higher taxes later on when you are earning enough to afford it.