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Ph.D. or PhD on business card

mano

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Originally Posted by nyf

While it's probably not a good idea to show up the maitre' D, some claim that making reservations as doctor leads to improved service at restaurants, airports, etc. Is that any more wrong than wearing a tie on a flight to get better service?


Interestingly, during grad school I worked at several upscale restaurants as a waiter, sometimes doing table-side cooking (Bananas Foster and steak au poivre), and working as a prep cook. Some of the biggest jerks and poorest tippers were physicians! While generalizations aren't necessarily fair, the people who made reservations under "Dr." were often overbearing and treated waitstaff like crap while expecting to get their asses kissed. My arrogant behavior with the maitre'D was, unfortunately, fairly typical.

I have friends who are physicians and a few use "Dr." One of them uses it all the time when making reservations, at the mechanics and even when he goes to the post office. He happens to be a great guy and everyone he deals with enjoys calling him "Dr." They give him excellent service because he appreciates them.

BTW, you get the best service at restaurants by keeping your reservation, being respectful of the waitstaff, showing a true appreciation of good service and good food. If a meal is really excellent, I'll send a note thanking them. If the place isn't too busy, I've been known to ask to go back to the kitchen to thank the chef personally. I'll usually bring him/her a glass of wine. I also like checking out the goings on and the cooking stuff in the kitchen.
 

LA Guy

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Originally Posted by mano
Interestingly, during grad school I worked at several upscale restaurants as a waiter, sometimes doing table-side cooking (Bananas Foster and steak au poivre), and working as a prep cook. Some of the biggest jerks and poorest tippers were physicians! While generalizations aren't necessarily fair, the people who made reservations under "Dr." were often overbearing and treated waitstaff like crap while expecting to get their asses kissed. My arrogant behavior with the maitre'D was, unfortunately, fairly typical.

Some physicians tend to be this way. My physician brother is lucky to have three brothers who are dutiful in administering beatdowns if he gets uppity. No one is ever too old to get a beatdown from his brothers.
 

globetrotter

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another issue - my understanding is that a person should never refer to his own title. that is - a doctor should never introduce himself as "doctor" smith. my father (not a doctor) used to introduce himself with his last name "trotter", which I used to do, until I moved to the states and started to use my first name more often.

so, by difinition, a lot of these guys introducing themselves as "dr. smith" are exhibiting poor form.
 

LabelKing

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In China, people are always referred to their professions, regardless of whether they use it themselves. A teacher is always called a teacher, and a doctor a doctor, and a craftsman a craftsman.
 

MrRogers

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Originally Posted by Violinist
They operate under a level of scrutiny that probably no other profession deals with, since it's life and death, not some glorified book report on King Lear or whatever.


About 1/2 my patients are acutely suicidal, most with a history of prior attempts. A few are homicidal, and the rest are psychotic with impaired judgement that makes them a great danger to themselves as well as others.

Not all psychologists counsel bored housewives.

MrR
 

MrRogers

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I can't find the post but someone made reference to the fact that a medical degree takes longer to attain than a doctorate which, often, is not the case. My degree requires a 2 yr MS, 5 yrs of coursework than an additional year or 2 of post-doc fellowship to attain licensure.

Just a thought

MrR
 

kwiteaboy

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Originally Posted by MrRogers
About 1/2 my patients are acutely suicidal, most with a history of prior attempts.

Do you work with a lot of borderline personality cases?
 

Hanseat

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Originally Posted by globetrotter
I don't know if this is true, but I have heard it from multiple sources - in germany, if you don't call a person by his correct title, when you are aware of his title, it is an offense that is actionable. basically, if you introduce somebody as Mr. smith, and he corrects you and says "that is actually Dr. Smith" and you then do it again, he could, theoretically, sue you.

Well, I'm studying law but have never heard of this- I took a short look in to the civil code but couldn't find anything remotely close to that. And as we don't have a case law (though it might be evolving a bit in that direction with vertical stare-decisis from the Constituional Court- its decisions have the status of law though) that's the basis for any trial. One might go over the libel thing but in today's world no judge would ever contemplate to to construe the law like that! In short, that sounds very much like BS.

Plus, even in Germany we're moving away from the titles a lot- at least anyone with some education does. I know Lawyers that have two different business cards- one that reads "Dr. iur. John Doe LL.M. (Harvard)" and lots of crappy titles in the law firm on it and one that just reads "John Doe", on which they'll add any necesary information by hand.
Really its more Austria that is so crazy about titles. The number of titles in Germany might start to diminish soon though as we were stupid enough to implement the BA/MA-system and tuition (500€ a semester- any american would love to pay that but around here people go on the streets). That means that fewer people will be able to fulfill the prerequisite for a Ph.D. than previously, when people graduated with a Diplom or Magister that were more research-oriented and thus the basis for a doctorate.
 

lawyerdad

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Originally Posted by Hanseat
Really its more Austria that is so crazy about titles.
Phillip Kerr has some fun with this in his Berlin Noir (which are partially set in Austria) trilogy.
 

Strokeman

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Originally Posted by MrRogers
I can't find the post but someone made reference to the fact that a medical degree takes longer to attain than a doctorate which, often, is not the case. My degree requires a 2 yr MS, 5 yrs of coursework than an additional year or 2 of post-doc fellowship to attain licensure.

Just a thought

MrR


It may also be a question of nature and content (beyond the number of years involved). Some degrees require students to engage in a substantial degree of critical analysis, information synthesis, inductive/deductive reasoning and so on. Other degrees require students to learn by rote. Other degrees involve other requirements.
 

vc2000

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Originally Posted by JBZ
You're just jealous. You probably spent around 5 years getting your doctorate, not to mention another 2 for your masters.

We lawyers got our doctorates in 3 years, total. It's such a sweet deal.


Ahh it is actually a violation in some states to refer to yourself as Doctor with a JD. It is my understanding that attorney's practicing in medical malpractice with MDs didn't like other lawyers advertising as Dr. Lawyer if they didn't have an MD - one might assume that a doctor or MD might be able to understand medical injuries better than someone without medical training. It implies that you have training beyond legal and it was regulated. Even if you hold a JD and a doctorate in another field you can have problems if you would refer to yourself as Dr. so and so JD. This is regulated by LAWYERS so the definition is by nature a pain in the fanny. You can list what you have Joe Smith, JD PhD MD WTF but not Dr. Smith JD. (Advertising is a new concept to lawyers and still somewhat frowned upon or at least it was back when I was working as in the field.)

How do I know this? I now work as a venture capitalist. During an IPO - in the required filings I was listed as an advisor - Dr. Professional Student, JD. (I didn't review my bio shame on me - the doctorate was omitted) Well I got a call from an attorney in one of the states that this is regulated telling me it was a violation. The interesting thing was the attorney suggested that he could get it taken care of - could he get in on the stock offering? Clearly ethics weren't the driver here. I called the state bar explained the error, paid a fee (about a pair of Aldens) and moved on. I probably could have avoided the fee - I wasn't practicing law in the state nor was I advertising but having a hearing would have meant that I would have had to disclose to regulators that I was under review by a state bar for violations. The process would have taken time and probably cost more than the fine. When you are working with the SEC and taking a company public you want to be squeaky clean. Rather I agreed to pay a fine but admit no wrong doing and to correct the error and not do it again.

I don't use the title Dr:

1. For the above reason(s).

2. The I first and only time I used Doctor I was "celebrating." Deciding not to drive home drunk, I checked into a hotel using my new title. I tipped a bellman a buck for showing me to my room - I didn't have luggage. He stated that Doctors normally tip better. Ouch.

2. I work in the tech field - my degree is a DBA - that is the applied degree that Harvard awards for Doctor of Business Admin. but it my field most people think DBA means DataBase Admin. Not exactly the same thus it is lost on most people and an explanation is required. Why bother? The degree was a personal goal not a public one. I joked that if I won the lottery I would get my doctorate - well I sort of won the lottery - the IPOs so off to school I went.

3. Some academics view an applied degree as a lesser degree to a Ph.D. Whatever. It is an applied degree which means I had/have experience which is applicable to the business world and I can exist outside of academia. I do research to the extent that I was required for the degree. Time only allows me to write a paper or so a year and teach seminars. Somehow the PhD's get over it when my check clears and my name appears on the new campus building.

4. I was long suspected as a professional student. My parents were gravely concerned that I would never amount to much or make any money. A rational person would have gotten out of school well before I did. I rarely want to explain this. Or explain to myself why I traded an endless supply of coeds, sleeping in until noon, and sitting around in an altered state talking about world affairs for insane hours, the SEC, and fund performance concerns.

5. Finally I find some people intimidated by the degrees. In most cases I want to make them at ease. My business is about learning about new businesses and the person(s) starting them. Putting any social distance between myself is not to my benefit.
 

molokheya

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Originally Posted by Violinist
Any doctor goes through as many years of training and school as you did, albeit some very difficult ones. I have no problem with people who get PhDs in Philosophy, but you'd think you might have more respect for someone who has accomplished a difficult task, and has a far more significant chance of actually doing something in their life which will benefit other people in some way.

I'd watch my tongue if I were you - fact is that doctor of Philosophia cover all science; physics, match, quantum mechanics, human biology etc etc..

TRUST ME - studying medicine IS NOT harder than engaging in science!!! Sure you have to learn a lot of stuff, and know it by heart, but the same goes for the other sciences.. M.D. cover a large area but don't really get in to details as compared to science-people.

The need for high grades to be admitted to studying medicin or law for example, and the high salary are purely a result of "PRESTIGE", which is the main reason why medical student or law school students have ever started their career... So Im sorry but I have greater respect for the geek behind the computer, than I have for the doctor in practise (who might completed his education with C's..)

Back to the subject:
I would look at cards from the university from which I graduated to see if collegues put PhD or Ph.D.​
 

molokheya

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Originally Posted by Strokeman
This is the order of academic standing at Oxford (at least according to Wikipedia): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degrees...demic_standing D.Phil. is above 'M.D.' but below 'Doctor of Medicine'. DDs and DCLs rank above all.
This list was put together in medievil times... can't really imagine that a "doctor of divinity" in practise (today) is more prestigious as compared to doctor of medicine or ( just to spice up an ancient discussion; religion vs science) doctor of philosophia/science (Im guessing these are the same today)
 

Zach

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Originally Posted by kwiteaboy
First of all, I don't hold a Ph.D yet. Secondly, the title "doctor" is reserved by the US DoEd and NSF for people holding doctorates (which are, on average, 6-7 year degrees) rather than four-year professional degrees like the M.D., so physicians who have an M.D. are incorrect in calling themselves "doctor" but physicians with both an M.D. and a doctorate of some kind can rightfully call themselves "doctor". Thirdly, Doctor philosophiae is the title of the most common academic doctorate, and doesn't only refer to those with doctorates in philosophy, so the assumption that someone with a Ph.D. wrote a philosophy dissertation is most of the time incorrect.

My discipline is clinical psychology, which I think (but what do I know, since I'll be poor and worthless when my schooling is finished) MIGHT stand a chance of helping people, with, say, psychological disturbances?

In terms of academia, the doctorate is the highest degree attainable and confers the title of Doctor. The M.D. is not the highest degree attainable and does not confer the title of Doctor. That's my point.

I don't mean to discount the difficulty of medical training, or the achievement of someone with an M.D. I have a lot of respect for physicians, but I think the average person has little respect for actual Doctors (regardless of the color or year of their Ford Tempo).


The degree of MD, Medical Doctor (Latin, Medicinae Doctor), confers upon the recipient the title of Doctor.

Incidentally, the MD title was awarded nearly 100 years before the first PhD title in the US, and Medicine is indeed one of the oldest professions.

Anecdotally, I prefer the term Physician as it separates those with an MD from those with history, psychology, gender studies, etc. degrees.
 

fareau

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The etymology of the word "doctor" is traced back to the Latin "docere", which means "to show, teach, or cause to know". The convention of referring to the physician as "doctor" in the English language dates back to the 1300's. It was around this time that the term was also used to apply to those who held the highest degree at the medieval universities that were starting to be founded. The inclusion of "medicine" as a course of study on the university campus was a much later occurrence, and the graduate was awarded a primary undergraduate degree (ie MBBCh). However, given the historical precedent, the newly graduated physician would assume the title of "doctor", while other holders of primary degrees would have to wait until completing their advanced degrees before assuming the title. You can easily see how one might get a little put out by this....

I am a physician. After >14 years of undergraduate, medical school, residency, and fellowship, with countless oral and written exams, I feel that I have earned my academic distinction. I have friends and family members who have been conferred PhD's, and I know without doubt they have earned the title doctor. I don't see the need in trying to determine who has a more legitimate claim to the tital; it seems petty and beneath all of us to disparage the academic accomplishments of our colleagues. However, I do recognize that physicians seem to get a little bit more social recognition in some cases, and I can respect the frustration of some of the non-medical doctors. If it's any consolation, the medical sub specialties feels something similar toward the surgical sub specialties (written somewhat in jest).
 

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