1. And... we're back. You'll notice that all of your images are back as well, as are our beloved emoticons, including the infamous :foo: We have also worked with our server folks and developers to fix the issues that were slowing down the site.

    There is still work to be done - the images in existing sigs are not yet linked, for example, and we are working on a way to get the images to load faster - which will improve the performance of the site, especially on the pages with a ton of images, and we will continue to work diligently on that and keep you updated.

    Cheers,

    Fok on behalf of the entire Styleforum team
    Dismiss Notice

Paypal scammed - Legal advice

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by poly800rock, Sep 15, 2006.

  1. poly800rock

    poly800rock Senior member

    Messages:
    3,435
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2006
    Location:
    NYC
    Has anyone else had any experience fighting paypal? as a seller, i got frauded by paypal when they took my money back due to "fraudulant funds" from the buyer. Item already shipped, money was lost. The address was unconfirmed, but the seller was verified, and I am shit out of luck now. Is there anyway to take paypal to small claims court for this? As far as I know the money was transferred to my account and then taken away. How do they have the right to take money back from me?

    PLEASE FUCKING HELP! I HATE THIS SHIT! and i am out of $300
     
  2. DNW

    DNW Senior member

    Messages:
    10,526
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2006
    Location:
    Recession, Baby
    Sucks to hear your story. I'm neither qualified nor knowledgeable enough to give you advice, but I just want to chime in: Paypal's protection policies suck. The only protection they provide is for their own ass. I hope they get fucked with a massive class action suit soon, with punitive damages. I was almost cheated out of $2000 last year when I bought laptop computers through eBay/Paypal and the sellers defrauded me. If it wasn't for American Express stepping in on my behalf, I would've been screwed and without recourse. Now, I will ONLY pay for winning items with my Amex card. The protection Paypal says you will receive if you fund your purchases with your checking account is a crock of shit!
     
  3. j

    j Senior member Admin

    Messages:
    14,914
    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2002
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    I set my Paypal accounts up only to be connected to savings accounts and transfer the money out of them. I've been hearing more and more about Paypal screwing people lately. It seemed to have died down, so I was leaving money in there to take advantage of the money market fund (5%!) but it's not worth the risk now IMO.

    Sorry to hear about this and I don't know where you could turn for help. Seems like a lot of people have been seriously screwed by Paypal/Ebay and it's only getting worse...
     
  4. lawyerdad

    lawyerdad Senior member

    Messages:
    21,819
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2006
    Has anyone else had any experience fighting paypal? as a seller, i got frauded by paypal when they took my money back due to "fraudulant funds" from the buyer. Item already shipped, money was lost. The address was unconfirmed, but the seller was verified, and I am shit out of luck now. Is there anyway to take paypal to small claims court for this? As far as I know the money was transferred to my account and then taken away. How do they have the right to take money back from me?

    PLEASE FUCKING HELP! I HATE THIS SHIT! and i am out of $300

    The answer to the literal question of whether there's a way to take PP to small claims court is yes. You can go down to court, get the appropriate form, and pay a small fee. You would then need to serve it on paypay, but with a bit of simple research you can figure out who the agent for service of process is.
    Whether you'd have any chance of winning, I unfortunately can't tell you. It would depend on what the terms of their contract with you say - and I can't imagine those terms are terribly favorable to you. [​IMG]
     
  5. Tck13

    Tck13 Senior member

    Messages:
    5,750
    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2006
    Location:
    Philly
    Not sure if you want to go to court yet. There are some other avenues to try first.

    Phone # from another thread:

    Also, try signing in to your account and going to "Community" and posting your problem in the forum. I've always gotten the best help there. It is a forum like Styleforum and someone always answers quickly (usually the same day).

    I would exhaust all options with ebay / paypal first. Usually, it gets resolved in a pretty short amount of time. Hope you didn't lose too much and I hope you get your money.
     
  6. EL72

    EL72 Senior member

    Messages:
    6,860
    Joined:
    May 11, 2006
    Location:
    Toronto
    Sorry to hear that. Happened to me a while ago too though thankfully for a smaller amount ($50) and this was at least 4-5 months after I had shipped the item. I complained to paypal but all they say is essentially: read the fine print; it's in the terms of the agreement you enter into with them when accepting payments. They can charge back payments anytime. And I don't know if transferring the funds to a savings account matters because they simply charge your credit card like they did mine as I had no $ in my pp account.
     
  7. VMan

    VMan Senior member

    Messages:
    5,103
    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2003
    Calling Ebay is a bitch. I've been having problems, and whenever I call and tell them my specific problem, they just transfer me to a line where I get a message telling me to go to the ebay site, click 'help', and go from there. Terrible.
     
  8. A Harris

    A Harris Senior member Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    4,582
    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2003
    That's the first, I heard of something like this. You are saying a buyer charged back, your account was empty, and paypal took tje money from one of your attached credit cards??
     
  9. lawyerdad

    lawyerdad Senior member

    Messages:
    21,819
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2006
    That's the first, I heard of something like this. You are saying a buyer charged back, your account was empty, and paypal took tje money from one of your attached credit cards??
    Just a guess here, but maybe it was one of those cc's that are set up to act as overdraft protection for the linked account?
     
  10. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member Admin Moderator

    Messages:
    33,398
    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2002
    Location:
    Moscow, Idaho
    I set my Paypal accounts up only to be connected to savings accounts and transfer the money out of them. I've been hearing more and more about Paypal screwing people lately. It seemed to have died down, so I was leaving money in there to take advantage of the money market fund (5%!) but it's not worth the risk now IMO.

    Sorry to hear about this and I don't know where you could turn for help. Seems like a lot of people have been seriously screwed by Paypal/Ebay and it's only getting worse...


    I'm the same way. My paypal account reads $0.00. I transfer money out of the accound as quickly as possible, and pay through it only using a cc.
     
  11. j

    j Senior member Admin

    Messages:
    14,914
    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2002
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    I went into the bank today, and the teller asks me, "do you bank with us? do you buy stuff on the internet with your checking account?" And now Bank of America has a system where they make you a linked checking account that ties directly to your main one, that you can transfer money into for buying stuff online, and they give you a Visa number to charge stuff on the account. But it's one-way, so Paypal (or another defraudster) can't drain your entire life savings.

    I signed up my personal and business accounts for this thing. It was free.
     
  12. RicoItaliano

    RicoItaliano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    63
    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2006
    Sucks to hear your story. I'm neither qualified nor knowledgeable enough to give you advice, but I just want to chime in: Paypal's protection policies suck. The only protection they provide is for their own ass. I hope they get fucked with a massive class action suit soon, with punitive damages. I was almost cheated out of $2000 last year when I bought laptop computers through eBay/Paypal and the sellers defrauded me. If it wasn't for American Express stepping in on my behalf, I would've been screwed and without recourse. Now, I will ONLY pay for winning items with my Amex card. The protection Paypal says you will receive if you fund your purchases with your checking account is a crock of shit!
    Agreed, PayPal's so called protection policies only supposedly protect buyers/sellers however, they do indeed protect PayPal unless your agressive. A seller who sells regularly online should NEVER use PayPal and should obtain thier own merchant account. As far as a Class Action Suit, NEVER, I would engage in a civil action on my own. Class actions are only for the lawyers profit. I will not use PayPal either as a buyer or seller. PayPal will most always cave in to the credit card companies without fail. I am not sure if a checking account is required, open one then after providing the information close the account. I would use only a credit card for purchases, better yet avoid PayPal alltogether.
     
  13. A Harris

    A Harris Senior member Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    4,582
    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2003
    And then you would have even less protection. With paypal you have at least some protection against chargebacks, with a merchant acct. you have none.
     
  14. RicoItaliano

    RicoItaliano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    63
    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2006
    In order to file a civil action you would need to locate information about in which state are they based. Corporations are required to have a representative who is thier registered agent who is required to be available for service of process.

    Get your ducks in order now, bank statements, emails, printouts of all PayPal website pages showing what has occured and in what amounts. Do that IMMEDIATLY as if your account gets shut down you will not have access to the pages in order to use them in court.

    After you compile your information send them a certified letter say no more than 2 pages detailing the matter, afford them 1 week to contact you to resolve, after the week send another certified in the form of a demand letter for all amounts you are out including bank fees or any monies related to this issue.

    Provide a notice of I would say 10 business days after which a civil action will be filed in your area small claims court not thiers. Some say you have to go to thiers however, due to the fact that they conducted business with you in your state means you can sue them there.

    When filing the action I would list the amount you are out of and be brief about the reason such as (Suing for damages due to unauthorized debits on my account.). The reason being I would want to fight the case in court and not on the claim which may allow for a summary judgement and never the oportunity to be heard.

    I would not converse on the telephone with them about anything let the call go into voicemail and if you should happen to pick up recard the call and let them now the call is being recorded and if they do not agree to be recorded they should hang up, I would say put it in writing and I would not respond and let the case go forward. I would also seek treble damages due to the fraud/unauthorized taking.

    One last thought is they may come back and make simply boiler plate statements that you are contractually bound however, I doubt you ever signed a document in writing and in my state any contract that is not signed in writing is in effect void (I had a battle like this in court and they lost).

    I would close any accounts that are linked to PayPal immediatly to prevent further damages.
     
  15. RicoItaliano

    RicoItaliano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    63
    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2006
    And then you would have even less protection. With paypal you have at least some protection against chargebacks, with a merchant acct. you have none.
    Sorry to disagree. PayPal is useless and unregulated. Merchant accounts afford a higher protection level than PayPal ever and currently offers. I have merchant accounts and as long as you dot your i's and cross your t's you can defend a chargeback. I feel this is probably easier when selling merchandise vs. services as the buyer cannot simply keep merchandise and not pay vs. a service can be claimed to be unsatisfactory. Additionally, if you operate well in business and the client attempts to keep merchandise and proceed with a chargeback they have not engaged in wire, telephone and perhaps mail fraud which may result in both criminal and civil actions if it were me. PayPal is notorious for caving in to credit card companies when they activate a chargeback, and they will simply tell the seller how sorry they are and how hard they struggled in your defence. Heres a site PayPalSucks.com. And P.S. I am not an attorney.
     
  16. poly800rock

    poly800rock Senior member

    Messages:
    3,435
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2006
    Location:
    NYC
    i was talking to my law school friend and he was telling me that there is no way ANYONE should be able to take money away from you. And in his opinion, he said that taking them to small claims court that most likely THEY would cave as they would have to pay an attorney ~$3-400 an hour + transportation to get down here and defend themselves, do any lawyers think my situation is worth it? Paypal basically told me I'm shit out of luck, but I think if i take them to small claims i will win, what do you think?
     
  17. RicoItaliano

    RicoItaliano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    63
    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2006
    i was talking to my law school friend and he was telling me that there is no way ANYONE should be able to take money away from you. And in his opinion, he said that taking them to small claims court that most likely THEY would cave as they would have to pay an attorney ~$3-400 an hour + transportation to get down here and defend themselves, do any lawyers think my situation is worth it? Paypal basically told me I'm shit out of luck, but I think if i take them to small claims i will win, what do you think?
    Well, I'll Bet they will respond only when served with a suit. And the result will be an attempt to dismiss with a request for summary judgement based on your agreement to thier terms when signing up for PayPal. As far as no one should be able to take money away from you, it happens all the time and they can get away with it provided you dont have the stamina to proceed forward with a legal claim despite thier attempts to get you to go away. Most people will bark and will not bite, they will make threats and will not follow through. That's what corp's like PayPal assume. But if you will devote the time needed and present the proper materials in proper fashion you will get thier attention, if not pack it up and go home. $300-$400 dollars an hour, baloney, they would contract the case to a local attorney and I doubt it would be at that rate. Spend money, yes I feel there would be little oportunity not to on thier part. I think if you babble on in the complaint an attorney would find something to reqest a dismissal base on yet again "summary judgement". Is this law school friend prepared to represent you Pro-Bono?
     
  18. DNW

    DNW Senior member

    Messages:
    10,526
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2006
    Location:
    Recession, Baby
    i was talking to my law school friend and he was telling me that there is no way ANYONE should be able to take money away from you. And in his opinion, he said that taking them to small claims court that most likely THEY would cave as they would have to pay an attorney ~$3-400 an hour + transportation to get down here and defend themselves, do any lawyers think my situation is worth it? Paypal basically told me I'm shit out of luck, but I think if i take them to small claims i will win, what do you think?

    You won't win. It's not the money Paypal owes you that it's defending, it's their policy that's they're defending. So, if they must spend a few grand defending the suit, it's a cheap price to pay for their policy. The only way you can get them is through a class action. It makes the potential damage big enough to attract the good lawyers. You won't get much out of it, other than personal satisfaction that you stick it to the big business.
     
  19. RicoItaliano

    RicoItaliano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    63
    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2006
    You won't win. It's not the money Paypal owes you that it's defending, it's their policy that's they're defending. So, if they must spend a few grand defending the suit, it's a cheap price to pay for their policy. The only way you can get them is through a class action. It makes the potential damage big enough to attract the good lawyers. You won't get much out of it, other than personal satisfaction that you stick it to the big business.

    If it were me I would not get involved with a class action even if it were possible to sucessfully initiate. I would find it more rewarding to engage in my own battle with them even if I lost, I would follow every detail of the case and do proper research. If they claim I should be bound by the agreement (probably not signed) I would look to find a reason in which they breached the contract/agreement first which would effectively make it null and void.

    I do not think that it should be viewed simply as sticking it to big business but should be viewed as standing up against a business that has perpetrated a wrong. And I do concede that this matter may have occured not because of some wrongdoing on PayPal's part but may have been due to fraud or just bad practice on the selling end.

    Anyway, if this person elects not to take action, this matter should be taken as a lesson and a review of one's own policy regarding the safest way to sell merchandise and protect thier financial interest.

    It seems that this order was made via a credit card through PayPal (which by the way makes PayPal the seller of record not the seller himself) and either this was made by the buyer and they are engaging in fraud or someone other than the buyer attampted to use the card. All it takes is for the buyer to make a purchase hoping the seller will ship to an unconfirmed address and then the buyer either files a claim with PayPal claiming non-receipt which isnt all that hard. PayPal will probably find for the buyer, if that failed going to ones own credit card company or bank will croak PayPal out faster than you can blink, PayPal will ultimatly cave and you the seller will get reamed twice.

    In closing I suggest that the so called protection policies of both eBay and PayPal simply do not protect anyone and when challenged you will only receive boiler plate communications and a tuff luck ending. I am not knocking eBay as you can close many a deal both as a seller and buyer if you operate well. PayPal however, stinks and should be regulated as a bank is, and for a business to use it I would say they were off thier rocker.

    The matter should be elaborated on to show what PayPal is claiming as to why they have pulled back the monies. EXA: Buyer claims non-receipt or did not order at all, was the claim initiated via PayPal or the CC company.
     

Share This Page

Styleforum is proudly sponsored by