Paul Sargent (formerly Alfred Sargent) Appreciation Thread

[mdjd]

Anyone have suggestion re: color of the above? My plan is to polish them with Saphir Hermes Red for a few months and then mirror shine them and hope for the best.

 

[ABM]

Hi everyone, I just received my first pair of Paul Sargent shoes, so here’s a little review.

First, the goods: Paul Sargent Cherry Moore, on the narrower SK1 last, size 9UK. I would call it a 9.5C US.
View attachment 1909315

They were very responsive and helpful to my questions about size, makeup, etc. The Moore in Cherry isn’t a standard RTW offering, but he gave me a break on the MTO charge since it’s a classic, I guess. Not counting the Christmas holiday, these arrived about 8 weeks after ordering them.

Fit: The Moore is traditionally on the 724 F (standard width) last, on the sharp end of the classic English soft square lasts. They don’t offer narrow on their lasts, but the SK1 is a narrow E last. I’d say the 9E SK1 fits like a 9.5C US. It’s a bit short, has a narrow toebox, standard/lowish instep, nice arch support, normal heel.

Compared to: Allen Edmonds 65 (Strand, etc) in 9.5D: SK1 is similar, but a bit snugger in the toe box.

TLB Picasso last in 9E (narrow): the 9E SK1 is ½ size smaller, with a less fitted heel.

Crockett & Jones 348 8.5: SK1 a bit shorter, snugger in the toe box, similar heel.

Style: Very similar to the 724. Compared to the old, Alfred Sargent Moore, the 724 and SK1 are more aggressively (Italian?) styled. You can see in the photos that the toe is more chiseled and lower – I prefer the softer, higher toe and bump that the old Moore had. The outside edge of the front half has a sharper, more right-angle line. Otherwise, they’re identical. I like the waist – it’s a soft, rounded bevel. Perfect closed channel sole.

Finishing: 9/10. Similar to TLB Artista, not quite Crockett & Jones level. Great leather, very even stitching, although not 100% straight across one of the toe caps. The only real flaw is that the dye is unevenly applied around the pinking – some of the borders have black dye, some have the lighter brown underlayer showing through.

Color: =( Extremely disappointing. These are not Cherry. Looking at different color palettes online, I would say this is closer to Brick than Cherry. In comparison to the old Alfred Sargent Cherry (which I’m selling because they’re too small), you can see the Paul Sargent Cherry is much duller brown. It has none of the subtle, deep, rich luster. More, the patina is uneven and splotchy, with lighter and darker spots everywhere. Nor is there any burnishing, or any kind of mirror shine.
Compare the old to the new:
View attachment 1909303


Same pants, similar lighting, huge difference in effect:
old Alfred Sargent

View attachment 1909305

New Paul Sargent:
View attachment 1909307

It's a shame, the difference.

Overall, I’d say the design is great and the QC is fine, overall very nice shoes, but these aren’t the iconic Cherry Moores of the past, since they aren’t cherry colored. I don’t get the same pleasure and feeling looking at these.

Thanks for that useful, honest write-up. I still think you've purchased a good-looking pair of shoes, but the disappointment regarding colour is palpable and easy to understand. I wonder to which extent PS sources materials from the same suppliers as before (I would have guessed they do). You might just have been unlucky - if not, then this would be something to bear on mind for anyone ordering on the basis of experiences with AS.

I'd definitely seek to create a reddish tone with a relevant polish and and mirror shine. I've had shoes that looked pretty dull out of the box that took a great shine nonetheless.

 

[ACLC]

Maiden voyage in the PS Stepneys

 

[jssdc]

Anyone have suggestion re: color of the above? My plan is to polish them with Saphir Hermes Red for a few months and then mirror shine them and hope for the best.

That’s probably what I would do. Just let the cream polish dry really thoroughly before brushing off. I might mix in black on the toe cap as well. Fwiw I ordered a pair of cherry Moore’s (from afpos) at thanksgiving and have yet to receive them, but am hoping the delay is cause the qc has caught up.

 

[scurvyfreedman]

The lights in the House of Representatives hearing room where my boss was testifying this morning had particularly good lighting for showing the patina after 10 years on these AS oxblood Moores.

 

[othertravel]

The lights in the House of Representatives hearing room where my boss was testifying this morning had particularly good lighting for showing the patina after 10 years on these AS oxblood Moores. View attachment 1924811

You work for TikTok?

 

[scurvyfreedman]

You work for TikTok?

Ha, ha, ha. I probably should have said the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee hearing room.

 

[LiverFieldie]

Does anyone know if the Bowen Oake and Oake II loafers are still made by Sargent? Or, if not, who is making them now? I'm on the trail of a JM Weston 180 style loafer and the Bowen seems like it might an ideal place to start -- I think I have a handle on sizing if the Bowen size chart and past experience with English GYW shoes adds up.

I guess I'd like to hear any experiences with Bowen to a US customer as well (I have a family member in France right now so I guess I could proxy them as well - but was hoping to cut off the VAT...)

 

[dukenukem4ever]

Does anyone know if the Bowen Oake and Oake II loafers are still made by Sargent? Or, if not, who is making them now? I'm on the trail of a JM Weston 180 style loafer and the Bowen seems like it might an ideal place to start -- I think I have a handle on sizing if the Bowen size chart and past experience with English GYW shoes adds up.

I guess I'd like to hear any experiences with Bowen to a US customer as well (I have a family member in France right now so I guess I could proxy them as well - but was hoping to cut off the VAT...)

Take my word for it… go for the 180 from start. It’s an Iconic. Don’t settle. You’ll buy a PS Bowen (I’m a fan dating back to their AS days) but in the end you’ll still lust for the 180. I wear my black 180s very often (probably my most worn loafer).

 

[LiverFieldie]

Take my word for it… go for the 180 from start. It’s an Iconic. Don’t settle. You’ll buy a PS Bowen (I’m a fan dating back to their AS days) but in the end you’ll still lust for the 180. I wear my black 180s very often (probably my most worn loafer).

Yeah - I see that. Not sure I can afford that right now, but it's a very good point.

And I suppose my question should have been: is Paul Sargent now making the Bowen version?

Herring has a very similar (like identical) to the Bowen version in brown on Dainite on its own brand, but the last is called an "MB1" and I'm wondering if that's "Manfield Bowen" and who makes that one as well.

 

[dukenukem4ever]

Yeah - I see that. Not sure I can afford that right now, but it's a very good point.

And I suppose my question should have been: is Paul Sargent now making the Bowen version?

Herring has a very similar (like identical) to the Bowen version in brown on Dainite on its own brand, but the last is called an "MB1" and I'm wondering if that's "Manfield Bowen" and who makes that one as well.

You could go for Weston Vintage.
Anyway with shoes, trust me (and maybe a lot of others who have a lot of skin in the shoe game) it is better to buy once cry once. Instead of buying a Bowen now and 180 later, pick up the 180 if that’s the look you’re going for in the first place. Knowing what I know now, I would have just saved up and bought the shoe I wanted in the first place. (Aside from Weston 180 and Golf, I only wear my EGs… have a bunch of CJ handgrade, carmina, herring, Allen Edmonds Alden’s and Alfred Sargent and Lobbs lying around just collecting dust. Big regrets.)
You can get the 180 here:

https://www.galerieslafayette.com/b/j+m+weston?query=jm%20weston

 

[dukenukem4ever]

I don’t know too much regarding PS. I have AS ARMFIELD and MOORE. Haven’t checked PS in a long time

 

[ABM]

Does anyone know if the Bowen Oake and Oake II loafers are still made by Sargent? Or, if not, who is making them now? I'm on the trail of a JM Weston 180 style loafer and the Bowen seems like it might an ideal place to start -- I think I have a handle on sizing if the Bowen size chart and past experience with English GYW shoes adds up.

I guess I'd like to hear any experiences with Bowen to a US customer as well (I have a family member in France right now so I guess I could proxy them as well - but was hoping to cut off the VAT...)

Don't know if you've gone ahead with these or another pair, but I can provide a bit of insight. I have a pair of black Bowen Oake loafers bought a few years back, and recently purchased a pair in the Camel colour. I can confirm that these are made by Alfred Sargent - it says so on the heel liner - and my suspicion is they are simply old stock from the days when Bowen owned AS. The Oake II, while similar, is Made in Spain and seems to be the successor model. Manfield says they are slightly slimmer. I don't know who makes them, but at at the price I'd rather buy directly from one of the Mallorca makers.

The Oake is indeed similar to the 180 by Weston, which I now also own, but the 180 is in a different league altogether. The fit, the leather and the finish is just much better. There's also another heft to them. If the 180 is what you want, find them at a discount on 24s, for example. Sizing is tricky, though - they deserve a snug fit, but I find the Weston 180 size to be just short of a half size away from UK sizing. Still trying to find out if 10.5 (10/ D) or 11 fit my feet better (I'm usually a UK11).

I'm not particularly impressed by the finishing on my new Bowen Oakes in Camel, to be honest, and it's not at the level of my other Sargent shoes. From what I understand, the marriage between AS and Bowen wasn't always a happy one, and I wonder if part of this might have been different standards when it came to producing shoes under the Bowen label?

 

[LiverFieldie]

thanks - that is excellent information. I can see if being kind of like Gucci bit loafers - I own them, and I have other kinds of bit loafers and the others (no matter how well executed) are never the real thing. Not surprising that Bowen may have switched to Spanish makers. I did confirm with Herring that their version is made by Sargent, so is basically the same thing as the old Bowen Oake.

Guess I'll have to start saving for Westons. Definitely will need to try on before committing to that level purchase though.

 

[JUAN MANUEL]

AS Pytchley on Dainite, one of the best looking wholecut bluchers. There are several Paul Sargent models in AFPOS in my bucket list.