• Hi, I am the owner and main administrator of Styleforum. If you find the forum useful and fun, please help support it by buying through the posted links on the forum. Our main, very popular sales thread, where the latest and best sales are listed, are posted HERE

    Purchases made through some of our links earns a commission for the forum and allows us to do the work of maintaining and improving it. Finally, thanks for being a part of this community. We realize that there are many choices today on the internet, and we have all of you to thank for making Styleforum the foremost destination for discussions of menswear.
  • This site contains affiliate links for which Styleforum may be compensated.
  • We would like to welcome House of Huntington as an official Affiliate Vendor. Shop past season Drake's, Nigel Cabourn, Private White V.C. and other menswear luxury brands at exceptional prices below retail. Please visit the Houise of Huntington thread and welcome them to the forum.

  • STYLE. COMMUNITY. GREAT CLOTHING.

    Bored of counting likes on social networks? At Styleforum, you’ll find rousing discussions that go beyond strings of emojis.

    Click Here to join Styleforum's thousands of style enthusiasts today!

    Styleforum is supported in part by commission earning affiliate links sitewide. Please support us by using them. You may learn more here.

Pairing oxford shoes with chinos

Is it acceptable to pair oxfords with chinos?

  • Yes, anytime, anywhere.

    Votes: 45 27.3%
  • Whenever you've got that "chino + oxfords" feeling.

    Votes: 29 17.6%
  • In a pinch (other pants at the cleaners, traveling, Halloween costume...)

    Votes: 36 21.8%
  • No, except maaaybe in a life or death situation.

    Votes: 55 33.3%

  • Total voters
    165

TheChihuahua

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2020
Messages
937
Reaction score
923
I hope you didn't just say that for that last bit, it was obviously a friendly jab at your obsession for country clubs that don't admit denim.

oh no, I was agreeing with what you were saying then saw your joke and chuckled anyway.

and on that point though, I never took the view that the country club uniform was somehow stylish or aspirational. I only had that discussion in light of why dungarees don’t work for a lot of people (besides them not being as comfortable as wool trousers, you can’t wear them everywhere…)
 

Mirage-

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2021
Messages
605
Reaction score
632
oh no, I was agreeing with what you were saying then saw your joke and chuckled anyway.
Ah, good.

and on that point though, I never took the view that the country club uniform was somehow stylish or aspirational. I only had that discussion in light of why dungarees don’t work for a lot of people (besides them not being as comfortable as wool trousers, you can’t wear them everywhere…)

A bit off-topic, but anyway...my objection isn't on whether that uniform is stylish or not either, though. It's merely that I find it funny how much importance you give to an aspect (i.e. being allowed to certain country clubs that don't permit denim) that has absolutely zero impact on the life of the vast majority of people. Ofc, if going to those country clubs is a big part of your life, it certainly makes sense for you to take that into consideration. It's only that I think you are highly overestimating how relevant that is to everyone else, i.e. us non-country-club-goers.
 
Last edited:

TheChihuahua

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2020
Messages
937
Reaction score
923
Ah, good.



A bit off-topic, but anyway...my objection isn't on whether that uniform is stylish or not either, though. It's merely that I find it funny how much importance you give to an aspect (i.e. being allowed to certain country clubs that don't permit denim) that has absolutely zero impact on the life of the vast majority of people. Ofc, if going to those country clubs is a big part of your life, it certainly makes sense for you to take that into consideration. It's only that I think you are highly overestimating how relevant that is to everyone else, i.e. us non-country-club-goers.

i don’t know many non-country club goers…. That’s a foreign concept to me. The idea of a 6 hour round at a municipal course anytime you want to play on a weekend is not something most people I know have time for.

But yeah, I see what you are saying.
 

TheChihuahua

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2020
Messages
937
Reaction score
923
Ha…

I just opened the Allen Edmonds appreciation thread. I figured it was one of those old threads that just never died.
it was started this year, January 2021. It has over 8k posts.

at least some people still appreciate AE.

(for what it’s worth I appreciate Allen Edmonds as a brand)
 

TheChihuahua

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2020
Messages
937
Reaction score
923
I think he said he doesn't do it personally. But he admires some who do.

I guess the issue I have is this:
He says that progressive oxfords are bad, or wearing oxfords with anything but a suit is bad…
But then admires people wearing suits with sneakers or blazers with army fatigues and new balance shoes.

and that’s fine. That’s his aesthetic preference. All good.

but then he tries to justify it by saying stuff like “connection to history” or “more informed” or “trained eye…”

And that’s just nonsense. What he approves of has no more connection to history, or is no more informed or trained eye than what he is critiquing.

now if he were to say,
I prefer the look when somebody takes a more formal outfit and makes it more casual with their footwear, as opposed to somebody who takes a less formal outfit but makes it more formal with their footwear…
well to me this would be an acceptable justification. I might agree, or I might disagree, but his justification for his aesthetic preference would have a real basis.

but the approach he is taking is using false justification to support his aesthetic preference.

I believe you are in academics? So you must see this a lot. When somebody has a theory or opinion on a topic amd tries to use some nonsense as their authority to support this opinion.

and then there are comments like this:

This "shoe culture" thing is totally new. Meaning, people buying shoes in jeweled-toned colors, such as blue, green, purple, and red. Or they buy strange versions of traditional dress shoes, such as oxfords. Nearly all of J. Fitzpatrick's shoes look odd to me -- directed at the shoe enthusiast, and not someone who's interested in dressing better. It's the shoe counterpart to the watch world.

so he seems to acknowledge that “shoe culture” is a thing, and that progressive or more fashion forward oxfords are part of that. Now we can debate the history of this or whatever, but we can all agree that there are a lot of makers putting forth more interesting and progressive oxfords than a simple cap toe these days. and there are a lot of them, some with some good reputations.

but at the same time, @dieworkwear is adamant that “the suit is dead”…

yet, oxfords shall only be worn with suits.

and, back to the comment just above, there are a lot of shoe makers cranking out a lot of oxfords. Some more traditional, but many with some progressive features.

now DWW might think that white canvas sneakers generally associated with middle school females in the 1990’s (keds, right?) look paired with a suit is a good look.
and he might not like the appearance of oxfords that don’t look like they come from a 1953 JC Penney’s catalogue.

but ultimately, to say that all of these oxfords are being manufactured and apparently sold (the “shoe culture thing” that he acknowledges), and of course shall only be paired with suits, and progressive oxfords are bad…,
while at the same time claiming that the suit is dead (and oxfords shall only be worn with suits..)
Well it all seems like he’s sort of talking out of his ass while trying to pose as an authority

and I know you don’t think he is trying to “be an authority”, but he clearly is when he tries to explain that a suit with a black t-shirt and keds ir army pants and a t-shirt and new balances with a blue blazer have “historical connection,” are “informed,” and fit with a “trained eye”
And then he cites to his JC Penneys catalogue from 1961 to show us that he’s informed and says that anybody who disagrees is “new to tailored clothes” and that he has a “trained eye..”

when in fact he just likes one look over another with absolutely no connection to history to base it upon but wants to point to that as a justification for his aesthetic preference so he can seem more authoritative
 
Last edited:

Mercurio

Distinguished Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2015
Messages
1,636
Reaction score
6,180
Lack of coherence: not wearing Oxford shoes when you should... o_O
(From the "Double Breasted Style" thread)

bda46af4-645f-4ad1-96c5-0dd395db23a4-jpeg.1671098

Driving shoes with a white DB and a cigar?
 
Last edited:

emptym

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Sep 22, 2007
Messages
9,654
Reaction score
7,351
While at my son's soccer game, I was thinking about why nontraditional oxfords and oxfords worn in nontraditional ways have become popular. Here's some reasons imo:

1) For years, style guides have told young men that people (particularly women) care most about one's shoes and watch. This gets guys to care about shoes.
2) Guys often think about clothes as tools and investments, both of which lead us to care about durability. And shoes, at least leather ones, are perhaps the most durable item in a person's wardrobe, so we're often more willing to spend a lot of money on shoes than on other items. This gets guys to care about leather dress shoes.
3) For a long time, black, captoe oxfords have been thought of as the first and most important dress shoe a guy should have--ideal for job interviews, weddings, and funerals. Guys looking to branch out from there naturally gravitate toward less formal types of oxfords. This gets guys into oxfords.
4) Wearing oxfords with chinos or jeans is a way to resist casualization and wear one's "best" stuff while not sticking out much. This, and the reasons below, gets guys to buy and wear oxfords more than would be ideal imo.
5) Otoh, they're a subtle attempt to signal to those "in the know" that you are also in the know. ("Hey, nice AEs, shell cordovans, etc.," wink, wink)
6) Guys don't wear suits very much anymore, particularly country/informal suits, but they still want to get some use out of their "nice" shoes.
7) Shoe companies want to sell shoes, so they push new hybrids (wingtips w/ sneaker soles) and traditional models used in new ways (AE showing oxfords with shorts).
8) A lot of guys simply think of oxfords as the nicest shoe and thus want to wear them as much as possible.
9) Shoes are easy to show off on instagram, SF, etc, compared to a full outfit. To combine some points made by others (DWW, Mercurio, Jmr928): It's much easier to buy and post shoes, watches, and other stand-alone objects than to (a) get a well-fitting suit or sport coat+dress pants and (b) coherently combine them with a shirt, tie, shoes etc.
 

emptym

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Sep 22, 2007
Messages
9,654
Reaction score
7,351
I guess the issue I have is this:
He says that progressive oxfords are bad, or wearing oxfords with anything but a suit is bad…
But then admires people wearing suits with sneakers or blazers with army fatigues and new balance shoes.
...
I think there are three groups under discussion:
(1) people who follow traditional styles,
(2) people who follow recent trends,
(3) people who create.

More concretely, in this discussion,
1) traditional styles = dark brown, burgundy, or black oxfords with worsted suits or tan or suede oxfords with tweed suits.
2) recent trends = any oxford, but particularly tan or blue suede ones, with chinos
3) creative = Keds or sneakers with linen or cotton suits, for example.

Imo, DWW likes 1 and 3 and dislikes 2. But that's more my take and not exactly what DWW has said. Imo, "creative" oxfords or the "creative use" of oxfords is really just a bad fashion trend and in poor taste. I don't think that's entirely subjective, but maybe it is, and I'm fine if others want to think it is.
 

emptym

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Sep 22, 2007
Messages
9,654
Reaction score
7,351
I just opened the Allen Edmonds appreciation thread. I figured it was one of those old threads that just never died.
it was started this year, January 2021. It has over 8k posts.
...
There have been many earlier threads. They just get so big that a new one has to be started each year. You'll find others if you search "Allen Edmonds Appreciation" in titles. One started in 2009 has over 70,000 posts. Before that, particular brands didn't usually have their own threads. There was just one big shoe thread. If someone could did that up, it might be fun to look at.
 

Mercurio

Distinguished Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2015
Messages
1,636
Reaction score
6,180
I think there are three groups under discussion:
(1) people who follow traditional styles,
(2) people who follow recent trends,
(3) people who create.

In this discussion,
1) = dark brown, burgundy, or black oxfords with worsted suits or tan or suede oxfords with tweed suits.
2) = an oxford, but particularly tan or blue suede ones with chinos
3) = Keds or sneakers with linen or cotton suits

Imo, DWW likes 1 and 3 and dislikes 2. But that's more my take and not exactly what DWW has said. Imo, "creative" oxfords or the "creative use" of oxfords is really just a bad fashion trend and in poor taste. I don't think it's entirely subjective, but maybe it is, and I'm fine if others want to think it is.
I think you could add a fourth group:

(4) People who know how to dress with traditional styles but are also aware and use recent trends and, because of this, are able and willing to experiment. This group could fall into your third one, but not necessarily.
 

emptym

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Sep 22, 2007
Messages
9,654
Reaction score
7,351
^True. Maybe we could divide the third group in two: those who know tradition(s) and those who don't. Imo, people educated in past masters are generally better creators than those who aren't. This seems the case in various fields. Jazz musicians, impressionist painters, and other great innovators mastered traditional forms before diverging from them. On this forum, it's often said that one must know the rules before one can break them well.
 

TheChihuahua

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2020
Messages
937
Reaction score
923
While at my son's soccer game, I was thinking about why nontraditional oxfords and oxfords worn in nontraditional ways has become popular. Here's some reasons imo:

1) For years, style guides have told young men that people (particularly women) care most about one's shoes and watch. This gets guys to care about shoes.
2) Guys often think about clothes as tools and investments, both of which lead us to care about durability. And shoes, at least leather ones, are perhaps the most durable item in a person's wardrobe, so we're often more willing to spend a lot of money on shoes than on other items. This gets guys to care about leather dress shoes.
3) For a long time, black, captoe oxfords have been thought of as the first and most important dress shoe a guy should have--ideal for job interviews, weddings, and funerals. Guys looking to branch out from there naturally gravitate toward less formal types of oxfords. This gets guys into oxfords.
4) Wearing oxfords with chinos or jeans is a way to resist casualization and wear one's "best" stuff while not sticking out much. This, and the reasons below, gets guys to buy and wear oxfords more than would be ideal imo.
5) Otoh, they're a subtle attempt to signal to those "in the know" that you are also in the know. ("Hey, nice AEs, shell cordovans, etc.," wink, wink)
6) Guys don't wear suits very much anymore, particularly country/informal suits, but they still want to get some use out of their "nice" shoes.
7) Shoe companies want to sell shoes, so they push new hybrids (wingtips w/ sneaker soles) and traditional models used in new ways (AE showing oxfords with shorts).
8) A lot of guys think of oxfords as the nicest shoe and thus want to wear them at all times.
9) Shoes are easy to show off on instagram, SF, etc, compared to a full outfit. To combine some points made by others (DWW, Mercurio, Jmr928): It's much easier to buy and post shoes, watches, and other stand-alone objects than to (a) get a well-fitting suit or sport coat+dress pants and (b) coherently combine them with a shirt, tie, shoes etc.

add this to the list and it’s a pretty good list:

10). Oxfords look better than derbies, and have a feel of putting a little more effort into the outfit than loafers.
 

TheChihuahua

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2020
Messages
937
Reaction score
923
^True. Maybe we could divide the third group in two: those who know tradition(s) and those who don't. Imo, people educated in past masters are generally better creators than those who aren't. This seems the case in various fields. Jazz musicians, impressionist painters, and other great innovators mastered traditional forms before diverging from them. On this forum, it's often said that one must know the rules before one can break them well.

see this is where I have a problem. When you start saying that one set of rule breaking is more educated or informed, it’s a slippery slope, and people who want to act as authority will simply use that as a fall back.

there is nothing to indicate that somebody wearing sneakers with a suit is more educated in tradition than somebody wearing brogued oxfords with wool trousers and a sports coat or those partaking in newer trend of more progressive oxfords in general.

although I fully intend to include “historical connection” and “informed” and “trained eye” into my message board lexicon. Whenever I’m in a heated debate those are going to be some of my new go to terms, and I’m going to try to find old JC Penney’s catalogue that might or might not have anything to do with the topic to back me up. Completely laughing the whole time of course like whenever I type “Caj” and think of Office Soace style office managers encouraging employees to go biz Caj 20 years ago!
 

Featured Sponsor

How important is full vs half canvas to you for heavier sport jackets?

  • Definitely full canvas only

    Votes: 55 36.7%
  • Half canvas is fine

    Votes: 59 39.3%
  • Really don't care

    Votes: 15 10.0%
  • Depends on fabric

    Votes: 26 17.3%
  • Depends on price

    Votes: 26 17.3%

Forum statistics

Threads
505,124
Messages
10,578,693
Members
223,880
Latest member
EdvardHelene
Top