Pairing oxford shoes with chinos

[TheChihuahua]

I generally don't mix SWD with CM, no.

but do you have a middle ground?

or do you fully commit.
If you are dressing with any formality, you want it to match the style of a 1946 apparal arts magazine. And if not, you are going for a Ralph Lauren look or a hoodie with belenciaga jeans and sneakers?

no middle ground?
No room for some sort of structured jacket but in a non-1940’s sense?

 

[dieworkwear]

but do you have a middle ground?

or do you fully commit.
If you are dressing with any formality, you want it to match the style of a 1946 apparal arts magazine. And if not, you are going for a Ralph Lauren look or a hoodie with belenciaga jeans and sneakers?

no middle ground?
No room for some sort of structured jacket but in a non-1940’s sense?

I really don't know what you're talking about because I don't view the outfits I posted as being 1940s.

I don't think you know what is SWD. Personally don't think you even know the language you're using.

 

[TheChihuahua]

I really don't know what you're talking about because I don't view the outfits I posted as being 1940s.

I don't think you know what is SWD. Personally don't think you even know the language you're using.

streetwear:

versus classic menswear that conforms to the old illustrations you have used as good examples:

so you don’t believe there is a middle ground?

So for example, the Las Vegas tailor examples. Clearly not something you would find in 1940’s menswear illustrations, but a middle ground.

or you don’t like Tom Ford, correct?
But here are a couple of his offerings that I don’t think look like 1954 Macy’s menswear catalogue pictures, but I’m not sure would fall into streetwear either.

now I’m not endorsing these photos, or even saying whether I like them or not. But rather, something in between looking like a 1980’s New England prep school teacher versus dressing like a streetwear/Justin beiber dude. There is an air of formality to the Tom Ford pictures, but they don’t fit in with the look of the 1940’s.

so you seem to think it’s all or nothing
If there is an air of formality, it has to look like a 1949 menswear catalogue? No room for improvising or taking liberties with the look?
If you are going to take liberties with the look, you have to go streetwear?

 

[dieworkwear]

streetwear:

View attachment 1670928

versus classic menswear that conforms to the old illustrations you have used as good examples:

View attachment 1670929

View attachment 1670930

so you don’t believe there is a middle ground?

So for example, the Las Vegas tailor examples. Clearly not something you would find in 1940’s menswear illustrations, but a middle ground.

or you don’t like Tom Ford, correct?
But here are a couple of his offerings that I don’t think look like 1954 Macy’s menswear catalogue pictures, but I’m not sure would fall into streetwear either.

View attachment 1670931 View attachment 1670932

now I’m not endorsing these photos, or even saying whether I like them or not. But rather, something in between looking like a 1980’s New England prep school teacher versus dressing like a streetwear/Justin beiber dude. There is an air of formality to the Tom Ford pictures, but they don’t fit in with the look of the 1940’s.

so you seem to think it’s all or nothing
If there is an air of formality, it has to look like a 1949 menswear catalogue? No room for improvising or taking liberties with the look?
If you are going to take liberties with the look, you have to go streetwear?

That's not how the term streetwear is used on this board.

I don't particularly care for those Tom Ford outfits, but Tom Ford's look derives from 1970s Tommy Nutter. It's another version of "retro."

At first, you described the outfits I posted as Biz Caj and Biz Caj Plus. Also an extension of 1990s business casual. Now it's 1940s. Not sure you're familiar with the history of men's dress.

I don't want to wear blue wraparound shoes, weird versions of oxfords, or whatever those Vegas tailors are wearing. I also don't want to wear teal t-shirts with teal shoes or cargo pants with green oxfords with contrasting laces.

If there's anything that sits between the casual styling of SWD and the classic rooting of CM, it's this weird space where people are buying blue and purple dress shoes like sneakerheads.

 

[TheChihuahua]

That's not how the term streetwear is used on this board.

I don't particularly care for those Tom Ford outfits, but Tom Ford's look derives from 1970s Tommy Nutter. It's another version of "retro."

At first, you described the outfits I posted as Biz Caj and Biz Caj Plus. Also an extension of 1990s business casual. Now it's 1940s. Not sure you're familiar with the history of men's dress.

I don't want to wear blue wraparound shoes, weird versions of oxfords, or whatever those Vegas tailors are wearing. I also don't want to wear teal t-shirts with teal shoes or cargo pants with green oxfords with contrasting laces.

If there's anything that sits between the casual styling of SWD and the classic rooting of CM, it's this weird space where people are buying blue and purple dress shoes like sneakerheads.

well 1970’s Tommy Butter, in their time, probably not much different 2010 Tanner Guzzy or 2020 Vegas tailors, correct?
Guy going outside the scope of more classic formality and trying progressive looks.

but I don’t think you answered the question I was wondering:
Do you have a middle ground?
If so, what is it?

you have said you haven’t worn tailored clothes much the past year. So the 1980 Andover math teacher look is apparently sitting in the closet moreso than being utilized by you.

so if you aren’t dressing like Justin beiber, what are you doing? Do you just fully commit to the Ralph Lauren look? Anything else is bad in your eyes?

perhaps the reason you don’t wear your tailored clothes much anymore is becasue you are bored with them? And you are bored with them because you have created so many restrictions on how you can and cannot wear them?

 

[dieworkwear]

well 1970’s Tommy Butter, in their time, probably not much different 2010 Tanner Guzzy or 2020 Vegas tailors, correct?
Guy going outside the scope of more classic formality and trying progressive looks.

but I don’t think you answered the question I was wondering:
Do you have a middle ground?
If so, what is it?

you have said you haven’t worn tailored clothes much the past year. So the 1980 Andover math teacher look is apparently sitting in the closet moreso than being utilized by you.

so if you aren’t dressing like Justin beiber, what are you doing? Do you just fully commit to the Ralph Lauren look? Anything else is bad in your eyes?

perhaps the reason you don’t wear your tailored clothes much anymore is becasue you are bored with them? And you are bored with them because you have created so many restrictions on how you can and cannot wear them?

I said I didn't wear tailoring very often before June 15, when the country was shut down. I don't wear tailoring at home; I wear it when I go outside. After June 15th, when California started to reopen, I've been wearing tailored clothing about four days a week. I wear both suits and sport coats.

I don't wear anything that approximates Justin Beiber. Most of my casualwear is workwear, like RRL and the like.

None of my tailoring is trad. I wouldn't consider myself a "trad guy."

Tommy Nutter is nothing like Tanner Guzy. If you want to learn about Tommy Nutter, Lance Richardson wrote a wonderful book called House of Nutter. Please make sure you type Nutter, not Butter (as you did in your reply). I'm afraid you'll end up buying a book called House of Butter. Edward Sexton is a masterful cutter and a man of tremendous taste. Sexton worked for Nutter as his cutter.

If you're asking whether I like things that are between super traditional and SWD, then yes. I've posted some examples in this thread. If you're asking whether I like people creating chaotic looks with "dressy clothing," then no. I don't care for that stuff.

 

[emptym]

Allen Edmonds 1959-1960 Catalog

Allen Edmonds Archived Catalog

issuu.com

The full brogue (and half brogue) oxford has been popular since at least the 50s, as evidenced by this Allen Edmonds catalogue. More notable is that Allen Edmonds used to have a wholecut during this period, which wasn't a frequently seen style at the time if I recall.

Neat catalogue. Thanks for sharing it. Two things surprised me about it: the seven hole oxfords and the many different split toe derbies, at least a dozen.

There is no other appeal except history...

I'm not sure I agree with this. A nice, old definition of beauty is that it's "harmony of contrast." Imo, blue shoes with a blue suit would be too much blue. Dark brown, burgundy, or black shoes provide some nice contrast, but not too much contrast, as light brown shoes would. There are probably other principles of beauty, such as symmetry, but not too much symmetry, or it'd seem perfect, and thus unnatural. So we have one breast pocket, maybe with a square, to break that up a bit. You've mentioned the principle of the inverted triangle producing a masculine look as another principle that I don't think is purely about history/tradition.

Assuming this comment was made in earnest, it's such a weird way of looking at style. This isn't even a view on style; it's a view on objects. It basically says people are stylish if they own this specific object...

This is a great point. Imo, saying oxfords are the perfect shoe is like saying a hammer is the perfect tool. Having a variety of shoe styles would be ideal imo, like having a collection of different tools in a toolbox.

 

[TheChihuahua]

I said I didn't wear tailoring very often before June 15, when the country was shut down. I don't wear tailoring at home; I wear it when I go outside. After June 15th, when California started to reopen, I've been wearing tailored clothing about four days a week. I wear both suits and sport coats.

I don't wear anything that approximates Justin Beiber. Most of my casualwear is workwear, like RRL and the like.

None of my tailoring is trad. I wouldn't consider myself a "trad guy."

Tommy Nutter is nothing like Tanner Guzy. If you want to learn about Tommy Nutter, Lance Richardson wrote a wonderful book called House of Nutter. Please make sure you type Nutter, not Butter (as you did in your reply). I'm afraid you'll end up buying a book called House of Butter. Edward Sexton is a masterful cutter and a man of tremendous taste. Sexton worked for Nutter as his cutter.

If you're asking whether I like things that are between super traditional and SWD, then yes. I've posted some examples in this thread. If you're asking whether I like people creating chaotic looks with "dressy clothing," then no. I don't care for that stuff.

wait a second, I thought you were one of the leaders of the “suit is dead” Revolution? Now you are wearing them often?
im not saying I don’t believe you, but it seemed like you were very much in the “now that covid has hit the casualization of america is complete andthe new uniform shall be an Earth tone soorts coat with split toe derbies” crowd.

Am I wrong?

if so, what his is an interesting developing in general. Maybe others will also come around?

 

[dieworkwear]

wait a second, I thought you were one of the leaders of the “suit is dead” Revolution? Now you are wearing them often?
im not saying I don’t believe you, but it seemed like you were very much in the “now that covid has hit the casualization of america is complete andthe new uniform shall be an Earth tone soorts coat with split toe derbies” crowd.

Am I wrong?

if so, what his is an interesting developing in general. Maybe others will also come around?

Yes, I think the suit is dead. Meaning that fewer and fewer people wear suits.

And yes, I wear suits. I also wear sport coats.

 

[TheChihuahua]

If you're asking whether I like things that are between super traditional and SWD, then yes. I've posted some examples in this thread. If you're asking whether I like people creating chaotic looks with "dressy clothing," then no. I don't care for that stuff.

I guess I respect those making a little chaos out of the dressier look more than those wearing streetwear like Justin beiber style, or those completely abandoning the idea of trying to have a professional look because zuckerberg wears t-shirts, or those dressing like they work at Best Buy as their professional attire. At least the Vegas tailors are trying.


I’m not saying it’s my thing. I would probably error closer to the boring prep school teacher look you posted favorably than the Las Vegas tailor photos. But I don’t look down upon the Las Vegas tailor photos either. I actually respect them for trying to keep some fashion in tailored clothes rather than everyone going streetwear.

and at the end of the day, those Vegas tailors, or those wearing the more fashion forward Tom Ford looks, don’t really care if they are adhering to golden era norms. Nor do Justin Fitzpatrick or gaziano and girling when they make oxfords that might be too progressive for your tastes. They just want something that looks good in their eyes for the current time.

so more power to them.

 

[ValidusLA]

\ View attachment 1670932

now I’m not endorsing these photos, or even saying whether I like them or not. But rather, something in between looking like a 1980’s New England prep school teacher versus dressing like a streetwear/Justin beiber dude. There is an air of formality to the Tom Ford pictures, but they don’t fit in with the look of the 1940’s.

Well they certainly don't fit into the 1940's, but that's a strawman, because no one is actually talking about that but you. How, exactly, is this formal? (and by this I mean the horrid Tom Ford in the attachment above).


Just a boring old grandpa look huh? Not formal enough for the good country clubs.

 

[apShepard]

Hey @dww, do you consider this look CM or SWD. I always tought of it as something in between but I might be wrong. Thanks.

 

[dieworkwear]

I guess I respect those making a little chaos out of the dressier look more than those wearing streetwear like Justin beiber style, or those completely abandoning the idea of trying to have a professional look because zuckerberg wears t-shirts, or those dressing like they work at Best Buy as their professional attire. At least they are trying.

I’m not saying it’s my thing. I would probably error closer to the boring prep school teacher look you posted favorably than the Las Vegas tailor photos. But I don’t look down upon the Las Vegas tailor photos either. I actually respect them for trying to keep some fashion in tailored clothes rather than everyone going streetwear.

and at the end of the day, those Vegas tailors, or those wearing the more fashion forward Tom Ford looks, don’t really care if they are adhering to golden era norms. Not do Justin Fitzpatrick or gaziano and girling when they make oxfords that might be too progressive for your tastes. They just want something that looks good in their eyes for the current time.

so more power to them.

To be clear, I don't "look down" on these people. I look down on people based on their character, which has nothing to do with their dress.

I'm purely talking about aesthetics. If we can't say that some aesthetics are better than others, then there would be no discussion on this board. People would just post their photos, and regardless of how they're dressed, everyone claps. This would be a disservice to the people participating -- and the people spending their money on clothes. If you spend thousands of dollars on a wardrobe and look bad for it, was that money well spent?

There's a lot of room between "accept everything" and "look down on people." You can also say that there are better versions of a look (here being classic menswear), and discuss how to achieve that aesthetic.

I've posted many types of outfits in this thread, which stretch across a range of CM expressions.

Here are some very traditional outfits. This doesn't look like the 1940s to me. These outfits include formal suits, casual suits, and sport coats. They can be used for a variety of expressions, even if they're all very traditional.

Here are some outfits that are not super traditional. Meaning, you will not see anyone dressed like this from the "Golden Age." They are contemporary versions of traditional outfits. Yet, they still have some connection to the past. (In the first photo, I'm focusing on Jeffery, the man on the left. In fact, the man on the right is very traditionally dressed, and his attire is a perfect foil for what I mean by Jeffery's contemporary take on CM.)

By contrast, these are also not recreations of the past. But they are also not informed by anything. They are aesthetically bad.

So yes, I'm happy that tailors and factory workers have jobs. But as people who are spending money on this stuff, we can also encourage people to buy better things, wear things in better ways, and develop a better sense of aesthetics. Otherwise, this forum would just be a consumer's bacchanalia, everyone encouraging each other to buy crazier and crazier things, wear stranger and stranger outfits.

 

[JohnMRobie]

streetwear:

View attachment 1670928

versus classic menswear that conforms to the old illustrations you have used as good examples:

View attachment 1670929

View attachment 1670930

so you don’t believe there is a middle ground?

So for example, the Las Vegas tailor examples. Clearly not something you would find in 1940’s menswear illustrations, but a middle ground.

or you don’t like Tom Ford, correct?
But here are a couple of his offerings that I don’t think look like 1954 Macy’s menswear catalogue pictures, but I’m not sure would fall into streetwear either.

View attachment 1670931 View attachment 1670932

now I’m not endorsing these photos, or even saying whether I like them or not. But rather, something in between looking like a 1980’s New England prep school teacher versus dressing like a streetwear/Justin beiber dude. There is an air of formality to the Tom Ford pictures, but they don’t fit in with the look of the 1940’s.

so you seem to think it’s all or nothing
If there is an air of formality, it has to look like a 1949 menswear catalogue? No room for improvising or taking liberties with the look?
If you are going to take liberties with the look, you have to go streetwear?

 

[dieworkwear]

Hey @dww, do you consider this look CM or SWD. I always tought of it as something in between but I might be wrong. Thanks. View attachment 1670968

In the way that the forum uses this language, I would consider that to be casual CM.

There's a thread on the CM side of the board titled "Classic Menswear, Casual Style." IMO, if a member here put up that kind of fit, it would go there.

WAYWRN: Classic Menswear, Casual Style

There has been a lot of talk about the inappropriateness of casual shots in the WAYWRN thread. Yet, that is what many of us wear more often than our suit-and-tie ensembles. Most of you'd agree that posting in the SW&D sub-forum is not an option. I've tried to assemble most of the casual fits...

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