Pairing oxford shoes with chinos

[radicaldog]

country-ish suits like glen check

A small point: come on, you know that a grey PoW suit hasn't been country wear for the best part of a century by now.

 

[radicaldog]

Okay I have a confession to make: I got married in black full brogue oxfords (with a pretty standard mid-grey three-piece suit etc). I just felt like it that morning. In my defence, it was a pretty casual wedding with people from all over the map, in a botanical garden, albeit in a big city. My mother objected to my choice of footwear. Then when she saw some of our friends she let it go.

 

[JFWR]

Pretty sure Spats Columbo was wearing spats, not spectators. It's even in the name.
View attachment 1670396

Also the half brogue oxford is often credited to Lobb in the 30's. Maybe @dieworkwear or someone with better shoe history knowledge could let me know of that's true or not. SLIH is set during prohibition in the 20s, hence the entire setup of Spats in the speakeasy.

Spats Columbo was wearing spats early on, then he was wearing spectator half brogues when they get to Florida.

I had called it out because it was a historical anachronism for him to be wearing half-brogues prior to 1930 because of the John Lobb history.

I don't have a screen shot, nor can I find one online right now. I believe it is either in one of two scenes:

1. When Spats comes to the hotel in Florida.
2. When they hide under the table where Spats is.

Nope, it wasn't under the table. It was when he arrives at the hotel.

So not in this scene.

It was when he arrives at the hotel.

FOUND IT:

 

[Nobilis Animus]

A small point: come on, you know that a grey PoW suit hasn't been country wear for the best part of a century by now.

Oh, I know that. But I also find it endlessly fascinating which parts of the past two centuries' definitions of casual are acknowledged by the internets and which are not, regardless of use. It doesn't seem to follow a regular pattern of plucking.

We seem to defer to more elite personages and their imitators in matters of taste up to a certain year, probably somewhere in the 80s, and then pretend like nothing else changed. E.g. there is little doubt that a tailcoat is reserved for formal occasions today, and only the eccentrics can pull off more frequent wearing (I see nothing derogatory about eccentricity, unlike some). By contrast, the daily wear of today's socially upper classes is seen as irredeemably casual. This creates a strange phenomenon whereby internet personalities assert that everyone is becoming more casual and sloppy whilst finding themselves hopelessly stuffy in everyday situations. Since so out of touch, it also escapes them that things like suits and tailoring are still frequently seen on the backs of today's taste-setters, along with plenty of other things (vintage designer stuff is very popular).

I think I have finally identified the impetus behind so many forum debates, bickerings, and impassioned pleas. It is the slow, long screw of awkwardness being driven into the brain - the panicky frustration of an average man being driven to eccentricity against his will. We've all signed up to play Hamlet, but find to our dismay that we've been given parts in Troades instead. It is hard on both wit and imagination to furnish continual excuses as to why our particular eccentricity ought to be the best one, particularly when it is both self-referential and self-exclusionary, and when there is so little wit to go about these days.

 

[radicaldog]

We seem to defer to more elite personages and their imitators in matters of taste up to a certain year, probably somewhere in the 80s, ... By contrast, the daily wear of today's socially upper classes is seen as irredeemably casual.

I don't think so, or not quite. The reason why we spend dozens of pages on a thread like the one on non-stuffy CM is precisely because we recognise the influence of our Silicon Valley overlords. OK, nobody wants to dress like Zuckerberg. But most everyone sees that because of Zuckerberg we can't dress like prince Charles.

the panicky frustration of an average man being driven to eccentricity against his will.

There's definitely something to this. I recognise it in myself. But I think the main driving force of those debates is a matter of just wanting to avoid a simple contradiction:

- I like the CM aesthetic.
- The CM aesthetic prescribes inconspicuous dress.
- Full CM is conspicuous in 2021.
- Therefore, if I am to continue dressing in CM, I must find inconspicuous ways of doing so.

See, I'm not worried about being seen as eccentric as much as I'm worried about contradicting myself.

 

[Count de Monet]

....
I had called it out because it was a historical anachronism for him to be wearing half-brogues prior to 1930 because of the John Lobb history.

Sorta like Marty McFly playing Marvin Berry's ES-345 in 1955 four years before it was released.

By the way, Marty was wearing those two tone loafers at the Enchantment Under the Sea dance that Ben Silver keeps trying to sell. But they were paired with an odd jacket and tie.

 

[Nobilis Animus]

I don't think so, or not quite. The reason why we spend dozens of pages on a thread like the one on non-stuffy CM is precisely because we recognise the influence of our Silicon Valley overlords. OK, nobody wants to dress like Zuckerberg. But most everyone sees that because of Zuckerberg we can't dress like prince Charles.

Ah, but here is where I make a distinction between the socially upper and the merely rich. Of course no one is hunting down what Zuckerburg is wearing via magazines (too sloppy and nouveau), and very few are attempting to imitate the RF (too stringent and aethereal). But this sort of problem is the purview of those who are out of the loop in the first place. The ones most want to imitate, the taste-setters, the arguably more influential because greater social/cultural capital - these are a different group.

There's definitely something to this. I recognise it in myself. But I think the main driving force of those debates is a matter of just wanting to avoid a simple contradiction:

- I like the CM aesthetic.
- The CM aesthetic prescribes inconspicuous dress.
- Full CM is conspicuous in 2021.
- Therefore, if I am to continue dressing in CM, I must find inconspicuous ways of doing so.

See, I'm not worried about being seen as eccentric as much as I'm worried about contradicting myself.

I take your point and agree, but these problems on the forum seem to run deeper to me. The fault, it seems, lies with the premises. The CM aesthetic of yesteryear may have prescribed inconspicuous dress, but it never did so indiscriminately - or even to the extent of this forum. People of different classes were (and are) advised different standards and modes of reason to govern their clothing choices. Sometimes that ended up creating overlapping features in the past such as two groups dressing in a similarly inconspicuous way, but the mentality of one (I mustn't look out of place by overdressing) and another (I oughtn't be showy as if I need to impress) might be very different. For a more basic example, we have the distinction between whether oxfords are too formal for chinos, or whether chinos are too casual for oxfords. The result may be the same, but the direction of thought influences the character of the subsequent choices.

Inconspicuousness may once have been desirable in an age when tastes were expressed through a more or less equivalent medium, but we are in a new era of conspicuity now. We no longer have to rely upon comparisons with merely our own circles where any deviation is immediately noticed - now we are constantly seeing and being seen, online and in public life. In my opinion, the inheritors of the tradition to which the CM community looks for inspiration are currently embracing a new maximalism. It is not gauche anymore to wear a hideously expensive coat, or head-to-toe (vintage) designer dress, or fabrics that scream luxury and expense, so long as all are done simply and tastefully - but it is immediately noticeable and noticed, because it is out of reach for most people. The difference is that wearing perfect jeans and quality outer/lounge-y clothes for afternoon shopping and relaxed evening clothes for the party later is conspicuous, but wearing a tweed jacket and flannels to the bar with one's college buddies is stuffy.

 

[db123456]

Notably, Florsheim only had two oxfords in full brogues, no half-brogues, in their 1969 catalogue.

Thanks for posting this; it was interesting to flip through.

It sure seems fair to conclude that wing tip oxfords have a robust pedigree, including as a business shoe. I have to say, though, that black brogues (like the "Crown" model pictured in the catalog) never do much for me. Maybe that's a product of internalizing too much of the analytical "notches" of formality thing that DWW has criticized -- i.e., black reads "formal" for me, while brogues read "informal," so I perceive a disconnect -- at the expense of history/tradition. But for whatever reason I'm not a fan.

 

[Panama]

Like me, he doesn't understand why you would try to force a pair of oxfords into a casual outfit when there are simply better options.

Like Crocs?

 

[JFWR]

Thanks for posting this; it was interesting to flip through.

It sure seems fair to conclude that wing tip oxfords have a robust pedigree, including as a business shoe. I have to say, though, that black brogues (like the "Crown" model pictured in the catalog) never do much for me. Maybe that's a product of internalizing too much of the analytical "notches" of formality thing that DWW has criticized -- i.e., black reads "formal" for me, while brogues read "informal," so I perceive a disconnect -- at the expense of history/tradition. But for whatever reason I'm not a fan.

Yeah, I personally think the black brogue is the least appealing brogue in a shoe. Nevertheless, a black lwb was very common and respectable, but I tend to think brogues look best in colours aside from black.

Also, florsheim did offer brogues in other colours eventually, and Allen edmonds was using them in other colours at the time.

I mean, one of the classic colours of brogues of any type is oxblood.

 

[Panama]

I couldn't even get through this entire thread, it's so bad. DWW has honestly got to be the most patient person on earth to post so many detailed explanations in response to people who seem to be willfully misinterpreting what he's saying.

Why is it such a difficult concept for so many members to grasp that "rules" are guides about what looks best in a CM context? No one is telling you you'll be arrested for wearing leather- soled, spit shined AE Strands with your low-rise, faded chinos. Heck, you might not even look terrible in that combo. But it's not the best you could look. You'd inarguably look better in loafers, derbies, or chukkas. Some insanely stylish "rule breaker" might be able to pull off black, patent leather opera pumps with khakis and a t-shirt, but we'd all probably say there are better shoe options out there.

Most all of us on this forum have way more clothes and shoes than anyone should. Why is there this fascination with dressing down an inherently formal shoe when we all own both casual and formal shoes? And for those just starting out who are just buying their first "nice" shoes, I would go so far as to say that, if you don't wear dark, worsted wool suits at least twice per week, an oxford should not be among the first 3-5 "work" shoes you purchase.

Not everyone can wear or feel comfortable in loafers and boots. So that literally leaves the choice of Derbies/Gibsons. I have never worn Monkstraps so can't comment on those.

I personally wear Gibson's when out in the country. I have recently bought a more formal pair of Gibsons, I could probably do a Dave Brubeck tapping at the Piano

 

[TheChihuahua]

Yeah, I personally think the black brogue is the least appealing brogue in a shoe. Nevertheless, a black lwb was very common and respectable, but I tend to think brogues look best in colours aside from black.

Also, florsheim did offer brogues in other colours eventually, and Allen edmonds was using them in other colours at the time.

I mean, one of the classic colours of brogues of any type is oxblood.

getting away from the topic of the thread, but on the discussion of black brogued shoes (@db123456 as well)…

First, most of my brogued shoes are a shade of brown. However,
I like black brogues. I have two pairs of black shoes in the rotation. One plain cap toe, another brogued.
I like them both.
And let’s be honest, we all like to have a rotation rather than just wear the same shoe every day…

on days when a black shoe is what I’m in the mood for (99.9% of the time with a suit)
the captoe has a more formal feel.
the brogue has a more daytime professional feel.
the captoe brings the outfit up a notch
The brogue keeps the outfit at a more neutral level.
Sometimes the captoe makes me feel too “dressed up” while other times the captoe makes me feel more “well dressed”
Sometimes the brogue makes me feel more in a professional work environment, like the finishing touch on the suits of armor that professionals wore 20-40 years ago.


it’s not a drastic change and something most people would even notice, but that’s sort of the feel I get.

these are two of the most worn shoes in my rotation. (I can’t remember the last time I wore either when not wearing a suit though)

 

[Panama]

I don't own any chinos

I don't own any ladies underwear

 

[Nobilis Animus]

getting away from the topic of the thread, but on the discussion of black brogued shoes (@db123456 as well)…

First, most of my brogued shoes are a shade of brown. However,
I like black brogues. I have two pairs of black shoes in the rotation. One plain cap toe, another brogued.
I like them both.
And let’s be honest, we all like to have a rotation rather than just wear the same shoe every day…

on days when a black shoe is what I’m in the mood for:
the captoe has a more formal feel.
the brogue has a more daytime professional feel.
the captoe brings the outfit up a notch
The brogue keeps the outfit at a more neutral level.
Sometimes the captoe makes me feel too “dressed up” while other times the captoe makes me feel more “well dressed”
Sometimes the brogue makes me feel more in a professional work environment, like the finishing touch on the suits of armor that professionals wore 20-40 years ago.


it’s not a drastic change and something most people I see while wearing either would even notice, but that’s sort of the feel I get.

these are two of the most worn shoes in my rotation. (I can’t remember the last time I wore either when not wearing a suit though)

View attachment 1670632

Throwing in my two cents: I also like black brogues and own/wear two pairs, in addition to my other black footwear (boots and captoes). They go well with any of my suits.

 

[JFWR]

getting away from the topic of the thread, but on the discussion of black brogued shoes (@db123456 as well)…

First, most of my brogued shoes are a shade of brown. However,
I like black brogues. I have two pairs of black shoes in the rotation. One plain cap toe, another brogued.
I like them both.
And let’s be honest, we all like to have a rotation rather than just wear the same shoe every day…

on days when a black shoe is what I’m in the mood for:
the captoe has a more formal feel.
the brogue has a more daytime professional feel.
the captoe brings the outfit up a notch
The brogue keeps the outfit at a more neutral level.
Sometimes the captoe makes me feel too “dressed up” while other times the captoe makes me feel more “well dressed”
Sometimes the brogue makes me feel more in a professional work environment, like the finishing touch on the suits of armor that professionals wore 20-40 years ago.


it’s not a drastic change and something most people would even notice, but that’s sort of the feel I get.

these are two of the most worn shoes in my rotation. (I can’t remember the last time I wore either when not wearing a suit though)

View attachment 1670632

Nice. What brand are these? If I were to guess, Crockett and Jones?

I mean, I definitely think the black brogue is acceptable, I just personally prefer other colours.

I especially like the half brogue for black which makes a difference, I'd say.