Pairing oxford shoes with chinos

[TheChihuahua]

Christ. So you couldn't provide a quote where he says "no exceptions" as you said, and then you accuse me of moving the goal posts?

You even posted the quote I already posted where he indicates what is "less bad" which is itself an exception.

View attachment 1609026

wow

can’t even follow through with your promise? Not a man’s of your word?

he said no wiggle room. He said others think exceptions apply, but he disagrees

looks like adrvini was right about you.

 

[ValidusLA]

he said no wiggle room. He said others think exceptions apply, but he disagrees

Please quote where he says "no wiggle room". You couldn't quote "no exceptions" as you said before. I will openly disagree with either one when posted by either him or yourself or you quoting him.

Looks like you moved the goal posts again!

Hint: My goalpost on this issue has been and continues to be - Provide a direct quote for what you say he said. Which you haven't yet done.

EDIT: He did indicate others think exceptions apply and he thinks these generally look bad. This is tacit agreement that there are exceptions to the rule (even if he thinks they look bad).

 

[TheChihuahua]

Hey Picasso,
Can’t even follow through with your promise. Not a man of your word. Not even in an interweb message board. Kind of sad.
Go ahead and try to spin it some other way.

 

[dieworkwear]

This convo is very strident.

I think oxfords are for suits, however, the combination of a smart sport coat with tailored (non-cotton trousers) and a very casual iteration of an oxford is less offensive to me than when the formality gap grows. For example, jeans or chinos with oxfords is a greater visual offense to me, than this:

Every time I've written about this, I've noted that many well-dressed men, Bruce most notably, wear oxfords with sport coats. However, I still think they look better with a derby in such instances. I like these two outfits better than the one above

I think the same is true for Simon. Which of these outfits do you like better?

Notably, Simon recently wrote a post titled "Outfits I Got Wrong." The first photo is of this outfit

Permanent Style

Outfits I got wrong

www.permanentstyle.com

While not an oxford, it's a swept-back single monk with a medallion. I would argue that this is a more casual shoe than an oxford with similar shape and detailing. Yet, even Simon notes that, in this particular outfit, he feels the shoes are "too smart" and he wishes he choose loafers. I agree with him that loafers would look better

Towards the end of his post, he says that, as he's matured in his dress habits, he's learned to dress simpler. He ends with this photo, which I think is a good outfit. The suede chukkas here seem much more coherent with the rest of his casual ensemble

I generally think outfits look better when they're more casual, sporty, or rugged. That said, I recognize that casual shoes don't have the same effect in a suit as an oxford. There's something very sophisticated about seeing oxfords with a suit. So while I don't mind wearing casual shoes with suits, I reserved oxfords for only suits. I think most men would look better if they did the same. However, if they wear an oxford with a suit, it should be a very careful consideration. Most of the time, it's not -- far from it. Oxfords are worn with jeans, chinos, and fun socks because someone simply wants to look "dressy" without committing to a fully tailored outfit. Or they simply don't know how to dress in a more classic way (or perhaps, they don't want to)

I like these outfits:

As someone's taste and eye for clothing grows, I would say just pay attention to how the shoes intersect with the rest of your outfit. Many times, men buy and wear shoes because they look sexy online -- and nothing looks sexier than an oxford because many people appreciate the sleek lines and connotations with "dressiness." People assume dressy = good. But they often don't have the wardrobe to support oxfords. Or the lifestyle/ occasions to wear suits. In such cases, I think the person would do better to dial everything back. Learn how to really lean into a casual, but tailored look. A derby can be a much more sophisticated choice when you learn about formality and social connotations of clothes, even if those meanings are mostly lost in the modern world.

Regarding brown in town, town refers to London, not "city." That rule, too, has mostly disappeared, but only recently. A friend of mine who works in IB told me that, up until about the 90s, it was still a thing in the most conservative circles in London. Nowadays, many people wear brown shoes even in banking. But while the "rule" is gone, I think it's good to know these things for your own private enjoyment. Classic men's style is basically archaic in the modern world -- most people do not know these very small things. But if you enjoy dressing well and you take inspiration from certain periods of men's dress, you may enjoy combining things in a coherent, classic way. It may be your own private enjoyment. If I were to work in banking in London, I think I would enjoy wearing black oxfords with dark suits, even if the "rule" is gone.

At the very least, I think these things allow an outfit to date better. Men who are constantly strident about "not caring about the rules" often look like this

 

[ValidusLA]

Hey Picasso,
Can’t even follow through with your promise. Not a man of your word. Not even in an interweb message board. Kind of sad.
Go ahead and try to spin it some other way.

You have yet to provide a quote.

You are being patently absurd and an idiot.

Provide it and I will disagree with it immediately.

 

[acapaca]

I have a little bit of a hard time reconciling, on one hand, the notion that dress is language and good outfits have coherence, and on the other hand, that navy blazer, white shirt, and grey trousers needs something less than oxfords but for linen or cotton suits oxfords will do. Feels like some inherent contradiction at play there, or at the very least a fair amount of arbitrariness.

I'm also surprised not to have read more discussion of lasts. Or of shine. (In that last outfit of Simon's, I imagine oxfords with less polish might have been more coherent.) Depending on patterns, lasts, material, shine, and so on, loafers themselves can span a very wide range of formality. Some loafers can look sharp with suits, some are just fine with shorts, but you don't usually find the same pair doing both jobs.

Those are the things that make sense to me when we're talking about dress as language, not so much what's going on with the facings. There are chelsea boots you can wear with suits and chelsea boots you can't, and I would think the distinction is obvious to most. There are some pics in this thread where if you change the lacing and leave everything else the same -- which you can certainly do with some of the styles, the full brogues in particular -- the objection would seem to disappear. That's what can come across as arbitrary, or rooted in 'history' but for the wrong reasons.

 

[ValidusLA]

Can’t even follow through with your promise.

As a reminder, my "promise" was:

You are free to quote him, go ahead. If he said "absolutely no exceptions" I will disagree with that. I still think its a good general rule for people to live by and then branch out from there

Please provide it so this can be done. I would be happy to disagree with him saying "absolutely no exceptions."

 

[TheChihuahua]

In these two photos, it’s not even close. The Oxford is significantly better.
I actually think the derby is a bad choice here. Is he being casual? Or is he being somewhat formal? I don’t think it’s as bad as the black version of this with prince Phillip, but it’s a bad look.
The Oxford however is very nice.
This really isn’t even a debate

This photo is A+. This might be the best of all the photos in the entire thread. It’s perfect.
why dumb this look down with a penny loafer? What would a clunky derby bring to the table here?
Nothing. He nailed this one. A+. A derby would lower the quality of this look.

 

[dieworkwear]

In these two photos, it’s not even close. The Oxford is significantly better.
I actually think the derby is a bad choice here. Is he being casual? Or is he being somewhat formal? I don’t think it’s as bad as the black version of this with prince Phillip, but it’s a bad look.
The Oxford however is very nice.
This really isn’t even a debate

View attachment 1609049
View attachment 1609050

This photo is A+. This might be the best of all the photos in the entire thread. It’s perfect.
why dumb this look down with a penny loafer? What would a clunky derby bring to the table here?
Nothing. He nailed this one. A+. A derby would lower the quality of this look.
View attachment 1609055

My impression is that people naturally like the last photo when they're new to tailored clothing. And, over time, they learn to dress in a more subtle and casual way.

 

[TheChihuahua]

My impression is that people naturally like the last photo when they're new to tailored clothing. And, over time, they learn to dress in a more subtle and casual way.

i disagree

I am not new to tailored clothing or shoes either. I know that’s sort of the faux flex around here, but it’s sort of silly.
I have had a renewed interest in quality and construction of clothing recently, but this is not some new adventure for me. Maybe that doesn’t meet the “I have more bespoke clothes than you” bragging point that some here like to faux flex about, but to make that claim is a bit presumptuous.

the derbies can make a look seem too casual. For some instances, fine. But in the photos you provided, it’s not even a debate in my eyes.

The derbies are not the better choice. It’s not even a debate. So to say as a rule the one that actually looks better should be avoided, well, I disagree.

 

[ValidusLA]

View attachment 1609058

My impression is that people naturally like the last photo when they're new to tailored clothing. And, over time, they learn to dress in a more subtle and casual way.

Agree. They either become more subtle or move into outfits like:

 

[TheChihuahua]

This convo is very strident.

I think oxfords are for suits, however, the combination of a smart sport coat with tailored (non-cotton trousers) and a very casual iteration of an oxford is less offensive to me than when the formality gap grows. For example, jeans or chinos with oxfords is a greater visual offense to me, than this:

View attachment 1609030



Every time I've written about this, I've noted that many well-dressed men, Bruce most notably, wear oxfords with sport coats. However, I still think they look better with a derby in such instances. I like these two outfits better than the one above


View attachment 1609048 View attachment 1609031



I think the same is true for Simon. Which of these outfits do you like better?


View attachment 1609032 View attachment 1609033 View attachment 1609034 View attachment 1609035


Notably, Simon recently wrote a post titled "Outfits I Got Wrong." The first photo is of this outfit

Permanent Style

Outfits I got wrong

www.permanentstyle.com

View attachment 1609037
View attachment 1609036



While not an oxford, it's a swept-back single monk with a medallion. I would argue that this is a more casual shoe than an oxford with similar shape and detailing. Yet, even Simon notes that, in this particular outfit, he feels the shoes are "too smart" and he wishes he choose loafers. I agree with him that loafers would look better

Towards the end of his post, he says that, as he's matured in his dress habits, he's learned to dress simpler. He ends with this photo, which I think is a good outfit. The suede chukkas here seem much more coherent with the rest of his casual ensemble


View attachment 1609038


I generally think outfits look better when they're more casual, sporty, or rugged. That said, I recognize that casual shoes don't have the same effect in a suit as an oxford. There's something very sophisticated about seeing oxfords with a suit. So while I don't mind wearing casual shoes with suits, I reserved oxfords for only suits. I think most men would look better if they did the same. However, if they wear an oxford with a suit, it should be a very careful consideration. Most of the time, it's not -- far from it. Oxfords are worn with jeans, chinos, and fun socks because someone simply wants to look "dressy" without committing to a fully tailored outfit. Or they simply don't know how to dress in a more classic way (or perhaps, they don't want to)

I like these outfits:

View attachment 1609040 View attachment 1609039
View attachment 1609045 View attachment 1609046



As someone's taste and eye for clothing grows, I would say just pay attention to how the shoes intersect with the rest of your outfit. Many times, men buy and wear shoes because they look sexy online -- and nothing looks sexier than an oxford because many people appreciate the sleek lines and connotations with "dressiness." People assume dressy = good. But they often don't have the wardrobe to support oxfords. Or the lifestyle/ occasions to wear suits. In such cases, I think the person would do better to dial everything back. Learn how to really lean into a casual, but tailored look. A derby can be a much more sophisticated choice when you learn about formality and social connotations of clothes, even if those meanings are mostly lost in the modern world.

Regarding brown in town, town refers to London, not "city." That rule, too, has mostly disappeared, but only recently. A friend of mine who works in IB told me that, up until about the 90s, it was still a thing in the most conservative circles in London. Nowadays, many people wear brown shoes even in banking. But while the "rule" is gone, I think it's good to know these things for your own private enjoyment. Classic men's style is basically archaic in the modern world -- most people do not know these very small things. But if you enjoy dressing well and you take inspiration from certain periods of men's dress, you may enjoy combining things in a coherent, classic way. It may be your own private enjoyment. If I were to work in banking in London, I think I would enjoy wearing black oxfords with dark suits, even if the "rule" is gone.

At the very least, I think these things allow an outfit to date better. Men who are constantly strident about "not caring about the rules" often look like this

View attachment 1609047

I do agree that this is a tough look.
however, I don’t think the shoes have anything to do with it. Put derbies on his feet and it probably looks worse.

 

[TheChihuahua]

This convo is very strident.

I think oxfords are for suits, however, the combination of a smart sport coat with tailored (non-cotton trousers) and a very casual iteration of an oxford is less offensive to me than when the formality gap grows. For example, jeans or chinos with oxfords is a greater visual offense to me, than this:

View attachment 1609030



Every time I've written about this, I've noted that many well-dressed men, Bruce most notably, wear oxfords with sport coats. However, I still think they look better with a derby in such instances. I like these two outfits better than the one above


View attachment 1609048 View attachment 1609031



I think the same is true for Simon. Which of these outfits do you like better?


View attachment 1609032 View attachment 1609033 View attachment 1609034 View attachment 1609035


Notably, Simon recently wrote a post titled "Outfits I Got Wrong." The first photo is of this outfit

Permanent Style

Outfits I got wrong

www.permanentstyle.com

View attachment 1609037
View attachment 1609036



While not an oxford, it's a swept-back single monk with a medallion. I would argue that this is a more casual shoe than an oxford with similar shape and detailing. Yet, even Simon notes that, in this particular outfit, he feels the shoes are "too smart" and he wishes he choose loafers. I agree with him that loafers would look better

Towards the end of his post, he says that, as he's matured in his dress habits, he's learned to dress simpler. He ends with this photo, which I think is a good outfit. The suede chukkas here seem much more coherent with the rest of his casual ensemble


View attachment 1609038


I generally think outfits look better when they're more casual, sporty, or rugged. That said, I recognize that casual shoes don't have the same effect in a suit as an oxford. There's something very sophisticated about seeing oxfords with a suit. So while I don't mind wearing casual shoes with suits, I reserved oxfords for only suits. I think most men would look better if they did the same. However, if they wear an oxford with a suit, it should be a very careful consideration. Most of the time, it's not -- far from it. Oxfords are worn with jeans, chinos, and fun socks because someone simply wants to look "dressy" without committing to a fully tailored outfit. Or they simply don't know how to dress in a more classic way (or perhaps, they don't want to)

I like these outfits:

View attachment 1609040 View attachment 1609039
View attachment 1609045 View attachment 1609046



As someone's taste and eye for clothing grows, I would say just pay attention to how the shoes intersect with the rest of your outfit. Many times, men buy and wear shoes because they look sexy online -- and nothing looks sexier than an oxford because many people appreciate the sleek lines and connotations with "dressiness." People assume dressy = good. But they often don't have the wardrobe to support oxfords. Or the lifestyle/ occasions to wear suits. In such cases, I think the person would do better to dial everything back. Learn how to really lean into a casual, but tailored look. A derby can be a much more sophisticated choice when you learn about formality and social connotations of clothes, even if those meanings are mostly lost in the modern world.

Regarding brown in town, town refers to London, not "city." That rule, too, has mostly disappeared, but only recently. A friend of mine who works in IB told me that, up until about the 90s, it was still a thing in the most conservative circles in London. Nowadays, many people wear brown shoes even in banking. But while the "rule" is gone, I think it's good to know these things for your own private enjoyment. Classic men's style is basically archaic in the modern world -- most people do not know these very small things. But if you enjoy dressing well and you take inspiration from certain periods of men's dress, you may enjoy combining things in a coherent, classic way. It may be your own private enjoyment. If I were to work in banking in London, I think I would enjoy wearing black oxfords with dark suits, even if the "rule" is gone.

At the very least, I think these things allow an outfit to date better. Men who are constantly strident about "not caring about the rules" often look like this

View attachment 1609047

having a chance to take a closer look at some of these.
This one is no good. This is an outfit he got wrong, due to the shoes. Poor choice

 

[TheChihuahua]

Not a fan of this one either.
What is it? It’s not a work outfit. It’s not really a nice outfit for a more formal tie wearing function.
it’s lazy. It’s like trying to look nice but being too bothered to actually act like one cares.
this has that forced “trying to dress up for church” look that you referenced earlier.
mom sure there could be situations where this could work, but I’m not aware of many.

although I’m not sure if the shoes are the problem here. Not sure if an Oxford could make it look better. Maybe a loafer could make it at least look as casual at it appears to be trying to be? The derby is a terrible choice here.

as always, just my opinion.

 

[dieworkwear]

Good lord.