Pairing oxford shoes with chinos

[smittycl]

I can't remember what he called me? I think he said i was brown nosing DWW? It's funny cause someone called me a troll yesterday for disagreeing with him. Name calling is so diverse.

Your last paragraph, once again, insists that all suits are formal. This is a far more ridiculous rule that you are in fact inventing while you simultaneously claimed DWWs oxfords with suits rule was "Gentleman's Gazette." Such loops of logic!

I'm not "claiming" Strands are in the same category as other semi brogues. Semi or half brogue oxfords are in fact a category. To which strands belong. Within any category there is of course varied expressions. Within this particular category, level of perforation or color might be the most obvious. I'm not sure what part of this you have trouble grasping?

What category would you say Strands belong to, if not semi brogue?

Lots of angst over Strands today. I still have four pair and they are fairly indestructible. Black, Brown, Walnut, and Dublin Leather (MTO). I wear black and brown with suits without issue. Walnut color nicely dulled a little with Saphir light brown, usually worn with sport coat combos. Dublin leather with brown flannel or tweedy stuff.

I agree that cap toe oxfords are for suits only but brogues go both ways. Black brogues add some nice texture to a suit, especially if wearing solid shirt and tie.

 

[smittycl]

what do you think HRH Andrew was thinking about?

Looks like he was thinking about cake.

 

[ValidusLA]

Lots of angst over Strands today. I still have four pair and they are fairly indestructible. Black, Brown, Walnut, and Dublin Leather (MTO). I wear black and brown with suits without issue. Walnut color nicely dulled a little with Saphir light brown, usually worn with sport coat combos. Dublin leather with brown flannel or tweedy stuff.

I agree that cap toe oxfords are for suits only but brogues go both ways. Black brogues add some nice texture to a suit, especially if wearing solid shirt and tie.

Well we've come a long way from when Chihuahua was calling me disingenuous for categorizing Strands as half brogue oxfords (which they are).

I like some broguing with a suit for sure. Especially with a DB.

I think a full brogue *can* be worn with separates, but should be done rather judiciously.

I think where I'm having the most trouble with this convo personally is the idea that general rules of where oxfords/derbies/loafers etc fit are made up personal contrivance.

I think people who think there are no rules tend to contribute to the iGentry, and make the pursuit of CM look like a performance at Pitti.

 

[TheChihuahua]

Well we've come a long way from when Chihuahua was calling me disingenuous for categorizing Strands as half brogue oxfords (which they are).

I like some broguing with a suit for sure. Especially with a DB.

I think a full brogue *can* be worn with separates, but should be done rather judiciously.

I think where I'm having the most trouble with this convo personally is the idea that general rules of where oxfords/derbies/loafers etc fit are made up personal contrivance.

I think people who think there are no rules tend to contribute to the iGentry, and make the pursuit of CM look like a performance at Pitti.

I don’t think there are “no rules”
But “oxfords only with suits” is not a rule. It’s made up. Maybe it was made up here in an earlier time and has some subscribers, but it’s not a real rule.

if one says:
Oxfords generally go best with suits..

Fine. That’s a perfectly acceptable opinion. I tend to agree with that statement. But that’s not a rule, that’s an opinion as to style.

a rule is like “no belts with suspenders.”
a rule should not be broken, and is generally accepted

when Allan Flusser and Simon crompton are both advocating oxfords, in some situations, be worn without suits, (and most people already adhering to this concept), I’m not so sure how one can say “oxfords shall only be worn with suits”

are we on the same page here?

 

[smittycl]

Well we've come a long way from when Chihuahua was calling me disingenuous for categorizing Strands as half brogue oxfords (which they are).

I like some broguing with a suit for sure. Especially with a DB.

I think a full brogue *can* be worn with separates, but should be done rather judiciously.

I think where I'm having the most trouble with this convo personally is the idea that general rules of where oxfords/derbies/loafers etc fit are made up personal contrivance.

I think people who think there are no rules tend to contribute to the iGentry, and make the pursuit of CM look like a performance at Pitti.

Still, black cap toe Oxfords look silly with jeans and Chinos which is the title of this thread. Brogues are very universal to me and fit all over the place. Casual or dress, as long as the color makes sense they can really work.

 

[ValidusLA]

Still, black cap toe Oxfords look silly with jeans and Chinos which is the title of this thread. Brogues are very universal to me and fit all over the place. Casual or dress, as long as the color makes sense they can really work.

I have a hard time with brogued oxfords with most non-suit applications. I love brogued derbies in general.

I don’t think there are “no rules”
But “oxfords only with suits” is not a rule. It’s made up. Maybe it was made up here in an earlier time and has some subscribers, but it’s not a real rule.

Its not a rule you accept. Doesn't make it not a rule.

when Allan Flusser and Simon crompton are both advocating oxfords, in some situations, be worn without suits, (and most people already adhering to this concept), I’m not so sure how one can say “oxfords shall only be worn with suits”

As I pointed out before. I misattributed that page. Its Roetzel. And even he is pointing out an exception to the case in which full brogued oxfords can be appropriately used with specific English countrified attire (cords and moleskin). I don't think almost anyone on this forum owns any moleskin; probably almost no one outside the US. I own one pair of moleskin pants and I'm probably an alien as an American.

a rule should not be broken, and is generally accepted

Have tread this ground already. You appear to have some problems on the uptake. The idea of learning rules and then breaking them once understanding is achieved is a long upheld concept among artists and others. Because beginners generally don't do well doing whatever they want.

“Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist” - attributed to Picasso.
"You’ve got to know the rules to break them… That’s what I’m here for – to demolish the rules but keep the tradition” - Attributed to Alexander McQueen. I especially like this one because he points out why its important w/ the last clause.
"Know the rules well so you can break them effectively." - attributed to the Dalai Lama. Also succinctly nails the point.

 

[TheChihuahua]

I have a hard time with brogued oxfords with most non-suit applications. I love brogued derbies in general.



Its not a rule you accept. Doesn't make it not a rule.



As I pointed out before. I misattributed that page. Its Roetzel. And even he is pointing out an exception to the case in which full brogued oxfords can be appropriately used with specific English countrified attire (cords and moleskin). I don't think almost anyone on this forum owns any moleskin; probably almost no one outside the US. I own one pair of moleskin pants and I'm probably an alien as an American.



Have tread this ground already. You appear to have some problems on the uptake. The idea of learning rules and then breaking them once understanding is achieved is a long upheld concept among artists and others. Because beginners generally don't do well doing whatever they want.

“Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist” - attributed to Picasso.
"You’ve got to know the rules to break them… That’s what I’m here for – to demolish the rules but keep the tradition” - Attributed to Alexander McQueen. I especially like this one because he points out why its important w/ the last clause.
"Know the rules well so you can break them effectively." - attributed to the Dalai Lama. Also succinctly nails the point.

neither of you rules makers are Picasso.
And a rule as stupid as “oxfords only to be worn with suits” would be like an artistic rule of “only shades of blue are allowed to be used when painting the sky...”
So unrealistic it’s not even a rule, even if some internet igents want to say it is.

but if you think you are the Picasso of the inter web style rules artists, so be it I guess.

 

[dieworkwear]

neither of you rules makers are Picasso.
And a rule as stupid as “oxfords only to be worn with suits” would be like an artistic rule of “only shades of blue are allowed to be used when painting the sky...”
So unrealistic it’s not even a rule, even if some internet igents want to say it is.

but if you think you are the Picasso of the inter web style rules artists, so be it I guess.

Dress, and classic men's style in particular, is much closer to language than art.

Creating an outfit is like writing a sentence. You can break grammatical rules and language is often fluid. But knowing how to write a sentence requires some knowledge of how language is used.

 

[ValidusLA]

neither of you rules makers are Picasso.
man’s a rule as stupid as “oxfords only to be work with suits” would be like an artistic rule of “only shades of blue are allowed to be used when painting the sky...”

but if you think you are the Picasso of the inter web style rules artists, so be it I guess.

Your attempted dodge is as logically inconsistent as the rest of your nonsense in this thread.

Never claimed to be Picasso. Pointed out an aphorism of his that goes along with my argument you have been trying to refute that rules 1) exist and 2) can be broken but 3) should only be broken by those who understand them.

He wasn't claiming to make rules. And neither am I.

Just...unbelievable levels of purposeful dumb here.

 

[TheChihuahua]

Your attempted dodge is as logically inconsistent as the rest of your nonsense in this thread.

Never claimed to be Picasso. Pointed out an aphorism of his that goes along with my argument you have been trying to refute that rules 1) exist and 2) can be broken but 3) should only be broken by those who understand them.

He wasn't claiming to make rules. And neither am I.

Just...unbelievable levels of purposeful dumb here.

he made up a rule.
he didn’t express a preference or aesthetic style.
he made up a rule. It’s not a real rule, he made it up. And he said no exceptions (go read the earlier posts)

so whenever I see somebody wearing a sports coat and some whole cut oxfords, I will think of

 

[ValidusLA]

he made up a rule.
he didn’t express a preference or aesthetic style.
he made up a rule. It’s not a real rule, he made it up.

Yip this away all you want. You've said it before. He is not "inventing" a rule. He is putting forward well understood style maxims in a condensed way.

And he said no exceptions (go read the earlier posts)

You are free to quote him, go ahead. If he said "absolutely no exceptions" I will disagree with that. I still think its a good general rule for people to live by and then branch out from there.

Some here have made the case that some very specific oxfords (e.g. brown suede ones with broguing) can be worn with very formal sport coat outfits (e.g. navy sport coats with grey trousers, white shirt, black grenadine, etc). I disagree, but that combo is less bad to me than oxfords with chinos.

This quote seems to allow for some more wiggle room than you are presenting.

This entire thread was generally civil until that guy, who you profess to agree with, brigaded in calling people "alpha males" and calling people here YouTube followers (much like you insisted we were doing it Gentleman's Gazette style!) after being on the forum like....5 weeks.

 

[TheChihuahua]

Yes, I think oxfords are only for suits.

Oxfords are only for suits, IMO.

Some here have made the case that some very specific oxfords (e.g. brown suede ones with broguing) can be worn with very formal sport coat outfits (e.g. navy sport coats with grey trousers, white shirt, black grenadine, etc). I disagree, but that combo is less bad to me than oxfords with chinos.

you took a pretty hard stance defending this made up rule without fully exploring it?

He says this several times.
Only for suits.
Even says more casual oxfords cannot be worn without suits (he disagrees with those who says they can be)

it’s a completely made up rule. Yet for some reason you are going out of your way saying it is a real rule

but now that I have shown you the quote, I expect you will now say DWW is wrong. Unless you intend on continuing to move the goalposts.

 

[dieworkwear]

you took a pretty hard stance defending this made up rule without fully exploring it?

He says this several times.
Only for suits.
Even says more casual oxfords cannot be worn without suits (he disagrees with those who says they can be)

it’s a completely made up rule. Yet for some reason you are going out of your way saying it is a real rule

but now that I have shown you the quote, I expect you will now say DWW is wrong. Unless you intend on continuing to move the goalposts.

Why focus on "rules" and not how to make more beautiful outfits?

 

[ValidusLA]

And he said no exceptions (go read the earlier posts)

Christ. So you couldn't provide a quote where he says "no exceptions" as you said, and then you accuse me of moving the goal posts?

You even posted the quote I already posted where he indicates what is "less bad" which is itself an exception.

 

[breakaway01]

Maybe we're getting too hung up on how rigid these rules really are. In my mind, these are not absolute laws, but it does help to have rules like this as one is learning how to dress. And most of these clothing 'rules', although some might claim that they are based on some kind of aesthetic principle (e.g. Manton's treatise on white shirts), are more accurately based on historic precedent and commonly accepted ideas of what looks good and what does not. Why does a black double rider leather jacket go with a white T-shirt and denim jeans? Not because of some Platonic ideal but because of historic precedent.

I understand that oxfords generally are more formal shoes than derbys -- again out of historic precedent more than anything else, IMO. So while I don't wear oxfords with chinos or jeans, I will sometimes wear a pair of shortwing brogued oxfords with a sportcoat and wool trousers. If one gets too loose with these rules, of course no harm done to anyone, but it does make one look incoherent.