Pairing oxford shoes with chinos

[acapaca]

Oh, yes, that's true. That world has mostly disappeared. I'm only interested in the aesthetic. Not the social norms of that era.

Well, okay...but, that seems at odds with much of the other rationale given in this thread (and in many other places). I mean, the aesthetics derive from something. The sleekness of the oxfords, the lines -- it's not so much that those have some inherent beauty of their own, is it? But more that they have an association with other things.

 

[emptym]

You were taught as a child or young man that the ONLY acceptable time to wear a pair of shoes with the Oxford lace system was while wearing a suit and tie? No other time is that acceptable?

who taught you that?

It was just part of the culture. I remember in college in the the early 90's being teased for wearing black captoes with a navy blazer and gray pants. My next dressiest shoes were Bean camp mocs. I knew they really shouldn't be worn with a blazer, but I did once, and was teased again. Most people I knew wore penny loafers w/ blazers. But I didn't like penny loafers back then, so my first shoe purchase after college, for work, were some split-toe bluchers and plain-toe bluchers, which someone mentioned earlier as the most versatile shoe. The past several years, penny loafers, namely the Alden LHS, have basically become my one-shoe.

if you said that you were taught that one should never wear white athletic socks with leather shoes, I would agree. If you told me that you were taught not to wear suspenders and a belt at the same time, I would nod. Don’t wear brogued shoes with a tuxedo? Sure. Don’t button the bottom button of your sports coat, or do so only when the higher button is fastened? Sure. Wear a collared shirt in public? Ok. Denim is for yard work? Fine. A gentleman tucks in his shirt in public? Fine

Hmm. White athletic socks with penny loafers was super common in the 80s, and prob in the 50s and 60s as well. They've also been pretty common for golf...

Interesting that you bring up not buttoning the bottom button. I remember that for my 8th grade graduation I kept buttoning the bottom button of my jacket, thinking that was the most formal or "proper" way to wear it. A year or two later, I learned from a salesman that the bottom button should never be buttoned. I didn't believe him. He said to take a look at any fashion magazine and see if any of the men had their bottom buttons done. I did, and he was right. But like you re. DWW and oxfords, I first thought he had made it up. It was a common social norm, he was just the first person who told it to me. It was shocking to me to learn it, as it has been for you and a few others on this thread. But I'm sure that as you/they observe the world with this new piece of information, you'll notice it more and more, like a learning a new vocab word. It won't be observed all the time, but you'll see that those w/ more knowledge of dress tend to observe it, while those with less knowledge (but perhaps great enthusiasm) may observe it less.

but somebody actually taught you that the ONLY acceptable time to wear a pair of shoes with a close laced system was while wearing a suit, and you must leave your tie on at all times?

Your all-caps "only" indicates you're still railing against a bit of a straw man. I, and many others, have said it's not a universal, necessary rule, but more of a thumb-rule/norm. I don't know why you've recently added the tie part.

So DWW posts a bunch of pictures to show that his rule is somehow real, but these pictures include guys wearin oxfords in non-suit and tie situations.

guy on the left here is wearing a sports coat recreationally with ocfords

If you look closely, the ones on the left are clearly either a chukka or a derby, while the ones on the right are cap-toe bluchers. Again, where did you get the tie thing?

 

[dieworkwear]

Well, okay...but, that seems at odds with much of the other rationale given in this thread (and in many other places). I mean, the aesthetics derive from something. The sleekness of the oxfords, the lines -- it's not so much that those have some inherent beauty of their own, is it? But more that they have an association with other things.

I don't have much interest in modern iterations of classic men's dress. So if I'm only interested in the historical styles, then there's no way to adhere to those social norms. For one, the suit has almost all but disappeared from most sections of American life. People only wear it to the most formal of occasions. So unless you want to be the only person in a navy suit and black oxfords at an office, you're basically stuck in the world of sport coats.

Depending on how far you go back, it may not even be applicable given your social position. I don't have any need for a wardrobe cleaved by country and city traditions. I don't shoot grouse on a Scottish estate. I don't do business in London. I am, however, interested in those looks, so I'm happy to wear a tweed sport coat to work, along with some of the things that were historically worn with such items.

I also think this is a good outfit for business casual offices, and it stays close to that historical tradition. Navy sport coat with a light blue button-down shirt and some tailored chinos. Depending on your comfort level and office, you can wear a pocket square or not (I know some guys don't feel comfortable wearing pocket squares in professional settings. I don't think the accessory is essential for this look). If you want, you can swap the tailored chinos out for wool flannels, gray whipcords, tan cavalry twills, or any number of tailored trousers.

For shoes, you can wear penny loafers or split toes. Both would be congruent with the outfit and the historical traditions (if you value that look). But I would agree that almost no one in modern life is going to know or care about these differences. This is purely for people who care about that historical tradition and enjoy the look.

 

[TheChihuahua]

It was just part of the culture. I remember in college in the the early 90's being teased for wearing black captoes with navy blazers and gray pants. My next dressiest shoes were Bean camp mocs. I knew they really shouldn't be worn with a blazer, but I did once, and was teased again. Most people I knew wore penny loafers w/ blazers. But I didn't like penny loafers back then, so my first shoe purchase after college, for work, were some split-toe bluchers and plain-toe bluchers, which someone mentioned earlier as the most versatile shoe. The past several years, penny loafers, namely the Alden LHS, have basically become my one-shoe.

Hmm. White athletic socks with penny loafers was super common in the 80s, and prob in the 50s and 60s as well. They've also been pretty common for golf...

Interesting that you bring up not buttoning the bottom button. I remember that for my 8th grade graduation I kept buttoning the bottom button of my jacket, thinking that was the most formal or "proper" way to wear it. A year or two later, I learned from a salesman that the bottom button should never be buttoned. I didn't believe him. He said to take a look at any fashion magazine and see if any of the men had their bottom buttons done. I did, and he was right. But like you re. DWW and oxfords, I first thought he had made it up. It was a common social norm, he was just the first person who told it to me. It was shocking to me to learn it, as it has been for you and a few others on this thread. But I'm sure that as you/they observe the world with this new piece of information, you'll notice it more and more, like a learning a new vocab word. It won't be observed all the time, but you'll see that those w/ more knowledge of dress tend to observe it, while those with less knowledge (but perhaps great enthusiasm) may observe it less.

Your all-caps "only" indicates you're still railing against a bit of a straw man. I, and many others, have said it's not a universal, necessary rule, but more of a thumb-rule/norm. I don't know why you've recently added the tie part.

If you look closely, the ones on the left are clearly either a chukka or a derby, while the ones on the right are cap-toe bluchers. Again, where did you get the tie thing?

debate is over. DWW posted pictures of historical golden era guys wearing oxfords without a suit and tie. (DWW said suit without a tie should is against the rules for oxfords way back deep in this thread)

navy blazer, grey pants, black cap toe oxfords is an acceptable look. Not sure why somebody made fun of you for that. Definitely not against any rules. Quite common (at least in proper New England settings).

white athletic socks with leather shoes is pretty much like wearing suspenders and a belt. Sure you can find a couple jfk photos with that look (not many), but if I wore that as a kid my grandmother would hit me with a ruler! Completely against the rules!!

 

[acapaca]

For one, the suit has almost all but disappeared from most sections of American life. People only wear it to the most formal of occasions.

Yes, but the oxford hasn't. That's what I'm getting at here, and what, unless I've just missed it, I haven't seen you really account for.

 

[dieworkwear]

Yes, but the oxford hasn't. That's what I'm getting at here, and what, unless I've just missed it, I haven't seen you really account for.

Yes, I agree. Again, I don't like that modern look. If people like that modern look, that's fine. I think my point only applies if you think there was something special about that look in that old period. It's purely about the aesthetics from that period, not about social norms. Even many members of the British royal family no longer ascribe to these dress traditions. Prince Harry dresses in J. Crew. These social norms are long gone.

 

[TheChihuahua]

Yes, but the oxford hasn't. That's what I'm getting at here, and what, unless I've just missed it, I haven't seen you really account for.

exactly

so by DWW’s made up rule, the Oxford is worthless. The suit is gone for many, so the Oxford should also go.

DWW is too busy associating the sports coat look with what it used to be worn as, a country/recreational outfit. Which generally would have derbies or loafers.

he doesn’t seem to acknowledge that oxfords are the shoe of choice in professional settings. And that the sports coat becoming popular in professional settings, the Oxford still remains the shoe of choice.

if you are out in the country, wear derbies.
If you are in a professional setting, wear oxfords or dressy loafers.

 

[acapaca]

Yes, I agree. Again, I don't like that modern look. If people like that modern look, that's fine. I think my point only applies if you think there was something special about that look in that old period. It's purely about the aesthetics from that period, not about social norms. Even many members of the British royal family no longer ascribe to these dress traditions. Prince Harry dresses in J. Crew. These social norms are long gone.

I see, I suppose. And yet there's still nothing at all costume-y about that approach?

 

[emptym]

debate is over. DWW posted pictures of historical golden era guys wearing oxfords without a suit and tie.

Where? The one you pointed to earlier were chukkas or derbies.

navy blazer, grey pants, black cap toe oxfords is an acceptable look. Not sure why somebody made fun of you for that. Definitely not against any rules. Quite common (at least in proper New England settings).

Well, this was in DC and Fairfield, CT, by fairly traditional, older men.

white athletic socks with leather shoes is pretty much like wearing suspenders and a belt. Sure you can find a couple jfk photos with that look (not many), but if I wore that as a kid my grandmother would hit me with a ruler! Completely against the rules!!

Maybe your rules. It's long been a very common Ivy look. I visited my sister at Georgetown (not Ivy, but similar) in the 80s, and almost everyone, men and women were wearing either khakis or jeans with white athletic socks and with either penny loafers or boat shoes. Before you start thinking I made it up:

White Socks: Not Just For Old Men - Ivy Style

Reposting this in light of a comment on our previous post “The Chase And The Catch,” regarding white socks being dorky. No personal opinion on the matter, as I believe it depends primarily on whether or not the wearer is a dork. — CC

www.ivy-style.com

White Socks x Loafers: A Complicated Collaboration

Looking through the pages (aka the digital scans) of Take Ivy I realized just how damn fantastic these kids made the white socks and loafers...

sartoriallyinclined.blogspot.com

Personally, I don't do it and never have. I prefer light gray socks if I'm wearing penny loafers w/ jeans or chinos.

 

[dench127]

This thread is gonna give me an aneurysm yet I can’t stop reading it.

dieworkwear wants to look like Elliot Richardson. TheChewWaWa likes the Midtown Uniform. Of course they’re gonna disagree on the role of the oxford.

 

[dieworkwear]

I see, I suppose. And yet there's still nothing at all costume-y about that approach?

Perhaps it is. I can't speak for other people's experiences. I think a sport coat looks natural in my settings. I wore a sport coat as an undergrad in college. I wouldn't recommend it to college students today, as I think it can come off as a costume. But in some settings, I think it can look natural. I also think it's easier to wear tailored clothing as you get older.

So if you're going to wear a sport coat or a suit, then I think it's a decision of what kind of look do you want to create. I don't think the average person on the street knows enough about this stuff to have an opinion on the details. They will not say, "oh that outfit looks casual because it has patch pockets and three buttons on the cuff, rather than four." Or "oh that outfit looks casual because it has derbies instead of oxfords." People comment on things like fun socks or very loud details. The nuance has been almost entirely lost.

So if the nuance is lost on the general audience, then I think this is just a private pleasure. If you like that classic look and you're going to wear tailored clothing, I think you can wear these things without it coming off as costume. That said, I agree that it's harder to wear tailored clothing in certain industries. It's also harder in certain areas and for people of a certain age. I wouldn't recommend it to a 20-year-old living in a rural area. But for someone in their 30s or 50s in a cosmopolitan city, working in an office, I think you can still wear a classic look.

 

[dieworkwear]

If you're going to have lunch at a nice restaurant in the afternoon, perhaps meet up with a friend, I think this looks pretty natural in a cosmopolitan city. Even though, I admit, most people at that restaurant will likely be dressed more casually (say, a dress shirt without a jacket). That said, I don't think this looks like a costume. Brown sport coat, ivory trousers, blue shirt, and split toe derbies.

If you're going to have drinks at a bar, then I think this looks pretty natural. Blue sport coat with grey trousers, navy polo, and black loafers. If you're going to be in the city in the afternoon and plan to get drinks at night, you can also do a blue sport coat with tan chinos, holiday collar shirt, and brown loafers.

When Nicholas visits San Francisco, he often wears something like this. We go out to bars at night and I think we both look pretty natural in those settings. Again, most people at these bars are not wearing a tailored jacket. They are often dressed more casually. But I think these outfits are fine and don't look like costumes.

If you want to wear a suit to bars or restaurants, I also think this looks good. Causal suit with a polo and some casual shoes.

If you're going to work in a professional setting, you can do Mark's outfit earlier in the thread: navy sport coat, tan chinos or grey trousers, light blue button-down shirt, and some loafers or derbies.

Many men today are dressed like these photos below. It's just not a look I like. Again, hard to debate aesthetics, but I feel it's reasonable to at least say that this is not a classic look, at least if we define classic to be tailored outfits from the periods discussed earlier. Will you look more "at home" in the outfit below than the ones above? Possibly. I don't know, as I can't speak for everyone's situation. But if I was not able to wear the outfits above, I would just move on and wear something more casual, not this sort of hybrid, modern classic look.

 

[TheChihuahua]

This thread is gonna give me an aneurysm yet I can’t stop reading it.

dieworkwear wants to look like Elliot Richardson. TheChewWaWa likes the Midtown Uniform. Of course they’re gonna disagree on the role of the oxford.

but the difference is:
I understand that the country look is allowed. DWW has created fake rules that anybody not wearing his uniform is breaking.

maybe one day DWW will have a more trained eye and see that his uniform is not the only acceptable look.

 

[TheChihuahua]

Where? The one you pointed to earlier were chukkas or derbies.

Well, this was in DC and Fairfield, CT, by fairly traditional, older men.

Maybe your rules. It's long been a very common Ivy look. I visited my sister at Georgetown (not Ivy, but similar) in the 80s, and almost everyone, men and women were wearing either khakis or jeans with white athletic socks and with either penny loafers or boat shoes. Before you start thinking I made it up:

White Socks: Not Just For Old Men - Ivy Style

Reposting this in light of a comment on our previous post “The Chase And The Catch,” regarding white socks being dorky. No personal opinion on the matter, as I believe it depends primarily on whether or not the wearer is a dork. — CC

www.ivy-style.com

White Socks x Loafers: A Complicated Collaboration

Looking through the pages (aka the digital scans) of Take Ivy I realized just how damn fantastic these kids made the white socks and loafers...

sartoriallyinclined.blogspot.com

Personally, I don't do it and never have. I prefer light gray socks if I'm wearing penny loafers w/ jeans or chinos.

I’m fully aware of the claim of white athletic socks with loafers. And I don’t dispute that it occurs. I even said you can find pictures of JFK doing it occasionally.
but my grandmother would hit me with a ruler if I tried that, and I think most from her generation would, so if we are talking golden age then it’s against the rules (jfk style was that next generation)
DWW posted at least two pictures with guys wearing oxfords with either a sports coat or suit with no tie. Debate is over.
(although DWW seems obsessed with the country/recretional setting for his made up rule, so no sure why I am either bothering to look at his pictures of guys at equestrian events and tennis matches as some sort of Bible)

suit with no tie and oxfords

Sports coat and oxfords (these are oxfords, not chukka boots)

 

[acapaca]

Perhaps it is. I can't speak for other people's experiences. I think a sport coat looks natural in my settings. I wore a sport coat as an undergrad in college. I wouldn't recommend it to college students today, as I think it can come off as a costume. But in some settings, I think it can look natural. I also think it's easier to wear tailored clothing as you get older.

So if you're going to wear a sport coat or a suit, then I think it's a decision of what kind of look do you want to create.

It's not that the sportcoat itself is costume, or out of place or unnatural. It's the notion that if you throw oxfords on with it, you are now 'out of costume'.

I just can't help but feel that there's at least a subtle incongruity here. You can take the casual suit and put loafers and a knit with it, or you can change those out for oxfords and a tie. But you can't take a blazer with a shirt and tie and pair oxfords with it. So you can 'dress up' the casual suit but not the blazer (or other sportcoat on the sharper side). Why would one be different from the other?