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Pairing oxford shoes with chinos

Northants bloke

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Business casual with a tie and jacket isn’t business casual. Just wear a suit.
Smart casual or business casual. This really is just a question of context. Where I work, there is an expectation that men wear a tie. I am entirely satisfied that the Oxford shirt, tie and sports jacket or blazer look fine with cotton trousers (chinos or corduroy). I like the versatility of wearing machine washable trousers so I am always wearing clean clothes without worrying about dry cleaning. No colleague has ever criticised me for it and minus the tie it is close to what I would like to wear anyway.

In terms of suitable footwear there all kinds of consider a wide range of boots and brogues work. My smartest black wholecut oxfords might be a stretch but I am still convinced that colour, texture and overall shape are the real deciding principles and that the old Oxfords/Derbies distinction is pretty irrelevant.

Ultimately we all filter what we see online, in retail and on friends and colleagues and gauge reaction to reach our own rules.

I would like to see this thread becoming more of a positive exercise in experimenting with informal trousers with different footwear combinations rather than obsessing about the lack of historical precedent for such outfit. Pretty much what the name of thread says. My now infamous blues suede oxford brogues are really a fun item that I mostly wear on rare (in Northampton) hot days when I don't fancy wearing my chukkas or simply fancy a change. Not keen on sneakers myself but I am interested in discussing how we might dress chinos up or down with different footwear and top halves. Of course chinos can vary considerably in colour, shape and texture if we are counting all non pressed cotton trousers. I suggest rather than edicts show us what interesting combinations you can come up with.
 

Panama

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I don't think anyone in this thread has said you must wear oxfords if you're wearing a suit.

As far as oxfords with chinos....why? They look stupid with chinos. Just go look at the Allen Edmonds thread and see how many terrible Strand+rumpled chinos pairings there are. Gross. Loafers, boots, long wing bluchers, PTBs...all look better with chinos that oxfords do. So even if you think it's stupid to have a "rule" banning oxfords with chinos, you should still not wear oxfords with chinos because you have a sense of style.
Absolute tosh. How old are you?
 

Panama

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I don't get the anti-rules sentiment. Everyone has style/clothing ideas that they believe with enough conviction that they could functionally be called a rule. I think everyone here would agree that wearing Crocs with a suit is an awful look and should never be done.

There's too much arguing about whether rules exist (a semantic debate, they functionally do) and who has the authority to make the rules, and not enough discussion about what the rules actually say and what concepts inform them.

Seems like folks are butthurt someone told them the way they've been dressing isn't ideal and that they've invested too much money (and their personal style identity) in oxfords over loafers and derbies.
Oh please, loafers are for children who can't tie up their laces, or canvas loafers for shorts and the beach. Leather dress loafers are also ugly. Derbies and Gibson are too, generally ugly. I have a few pairs, I would buy more, but they are always ****ing ugly....
 

TheChihuahua

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Well said. To persist in thinking DWW invented these norms is foolish and self-deceptive.
wait, “these norms”?

it’s one “rule” that DWW made up. He did make it up. It has no basis in reality. I know you are big on defending him, but he made up a rule, he should at least own it.

the “rule” that oxfords shall only be worn with a suit and tie is not a “norm” anywhere. It’s a fictional igent rule by a blogger. Nothing more.
 

johng70

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Seems like folks are butthurt someone told them the way they've been dressing isn't ideal and that they've invested too much money (and their personal style identity) in oxfords over loafers and derbies.
Or based upon real world people whise ipinioms i respect as well as total strangers frequently complimenting how i dress, i geel very confident in my choices. And, i want to offer people unsure an opposing point of view ro those who arrogantly assert there choices are the only reasonable ones. After all, do i trust the iponions of professionals and well dressed people in the real world or some guy on the internet? Pretty easy choice. Sorry you might be offended that someone has a point of view different than yours. That's unfortunate for you.
 

TheChihuahua

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Or based upon real world people whise ipinioms i respect as well as total strangers frequently complimenting how i dress, i geel very confident in my choices. And, i want to offer people unsure an opposing point of view ro those who arrogantly assert there choices are the only reasonable ones. After all, do i trust the iponions of professionals and well dressed people in the real world or some guy on the internet? Pretty easy choice. Sorry you might be offended that someone has a point of view different than yours. That's unfortunate for you.
I think you should focus more on made up fictional rules by igent bloggers who think life is a cosplay of an era somewhere between Beau Brummell amd Perry Mason. That’s what really matters. Fictional igent rules.
 

Panama

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You seem to a have fundamental problem with the idea of rules in clothing and yet you also clearly have your own set of rules that you follow.

Maybe it will help if I substitute the word “rules” with “norms”, which can be used synonymously.

It was the norm in what is often considered the golden age of menswear to wear certain combinations of clothing items, determined largely by the formality of the occasion and the seasons. These norms are documented in thousands of pictures in iconic magazines like Apparel Arts and early issues of Esquire, as well of thousands of photos, some of which were shared by DWW and feature on Voxsartoria’s website. There is a community of people today who admire those norms and think they still look good today, and that they look good partly because they form part of an coherent scheme of norms. The idea of dressing perfectly from head to toe for the occasion and the season is a satisfying concept for many.

Your own personal rules for what you think looks good do not fit within the scheme of norms outlined above. That’s fine, but don’t pretend these norms are made up by iGents or that they are a matter of opinion. Their existence is a matter of fact that has been abundantly evidenced. You don’t have to follow them but it doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
Do you go to work in a frock coat, top hat, spats and a detachable collar?
 

dieworkwear

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Or based upon real world people whise ipinioms i respect as well as total strangers frequently complimenting how i dress, i geel very confident in my choices. And, i want to offer people unsure an opposing point of view ro those who arrogantly assert there choices are the only reasonable ones. After all, do i trust the iponions of professionals and well dressed people in the real world or some guy on the internet? Pretty easy choice. Sorry you might be offended that someone has a point of view different than yours. That's unfortunate for you.
"My rule" won't necessarily get you comments or compliments from people in your social circle. The point of the dress may not even be to get compliments. If your goal is to get complimented by people in your circle, then certainly, it may make sense to dress in other ways.

I think discussions can only move forward people first agree on a premise. In this case, my premise is that this historic style is better than the modern one. If people think there was something special about classic men's style from the 1930s to '80s, excluding the 70s, then I invite them to post photos of men wearing oxfords outside the context of suits. Or Apparel Arts scans.

I think it's perfectly fine and reasonable for someone to say they don't want to dress like men from those eras or they find such dress antiquated. Again, this convo is only useful if people share a premise.
 

TheChihuahua

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"My rule" won't necessarily get you comments or compliments from people in your social circle. The point of the dress may not even be to get compliments. If your goal is to get complimented by people in your circle, then certainly, it may make sense to dress in other ways.

I think discussions can only move forward people first agree on a premise. In this case, my premise is that this historic style is better than the modern one. If people think there was something special about classic men's style from the 1930s to '80s, excluding the 70s, then I invite them to post photos of men wearing oxfords outside the context of suits. Or Apparel Arts scans.

I think it's perfectly fine and reasonable for someone to say they don't want to dress like men from those eras or they find such dress antiquated. Again, this convo is only useful if people share a premise.
so according to that premise, one really shouldn’t be wearing sports coats and trousers in the work place?
Trousers and sports coats should be reserved for weekend wear? Sunday strolls? Church? Etc…

or do you bend your rules for that nuance because you like the more smart caj plus look? But then maintain that if you are going smart caj plus you are still limited to only wearing what they wore 70 years ago when that type of attire was limited to a different context?

you are a walking contradiction in this discussion.
 

rjc149

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Smart casual or business casual. This really is just a question of context. Where I work, there is an expectation that men wear a tie. I am entirely satisfied that the Oxford shirt, tie and sports jacket or blazer look fine with cotton trousers (chinos or corduroy). I like the versatility of wearing machine washable trousers so I am always wearing clean clothes without worrying about dry cleaning. No colleague has ever criticised me for it and minus the tie it is close to what I would like to wear anyway.

In terms of suitable footwear there all kinds of consider a wide range of boots and brogues work. My smartest black wholecut oxfords might be a stretch but I am still convinced that colour, texture and overall shape are the real deciding principles and that the old Oxfords/Derbies distinction is pretty irrelevant.

Ultimately we all filter what we see online, in retail and on friends and colleagues and gauge reaction to reach our own rules.

I would like to see this thread becoming more of a positive exercise in experimenting with informal trousers with different footwear combinations rather than obsessing about the lack of historical precedent for such outfit. Pretty much what the name of thread says. My now infamous blues suede oxford brogues are really a fun item that I mostly wear on rare (in Northampton) hot days when I don't fancy wearing my chukkas or simply fancy a change. Not keen on sneakers myself but I am interested in discussing how we might dress chinos up or down with different footwear and top halves. Of course chinos can vary considerably in colour, shape and texture if we are counting all non pressed cotton trousers. I suggest rather than edicts show us what interesting combinations you can come up with.
Business casual for me is defined as chinos or slacks, leather shoes, and a collared shirt worn tucked. The jacket and tie belong with business attire, not business casual. I say that as a matter of personal comfort, not what I want to see others wear. If I'm not wearing a suit, I'd rather not wear a jacket or tie.

Given that my place of work allows business casual only on Friday between Memorial and Labor Day (summer), and that I do not wear brown shoes with suits, I have no need to own brown dress shoes. Especially good ones which are expensive and painful to break in. Clark chukkas are versatile and safe for anything up to full business attire.

For me this is really more about personal style preferences. Enforcing those preferences as edicts onto others is another matter that I'm not involved with here. Me? No brown shoes with suits. Others? Fine. As long as you look neat and professional, I let well enough alone.
 
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dieworkwear

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Business casual for me is defined as chinos or slacks, leather shoes, and a collared shirt worn tucked. The jacket and tie belong with business attire, not business casual.
I agree this is how business casual is done in the modern context. I personally don't like the look. It has the faint echoes of classic men's style without any of the benefits of wearing a tailored jacket (e.g., the way a jacket can build up a silhouette). It also doesn't have any of the creative expression of good casualwear. It just feels vanilla bland to me.

If someone likes classic men's style from the period I referenced, and they work in a business casual environment, then I think they can do:

1. sport coat
2. slightly more casual shirt (e.g, light blue OCBD)
3. tailored trousers
4. an appropriate pair of shoes (e.g. derbies, loafers, chukkas, etc)
5. probably no tie, given today's environment

This is on the casual side of that classic look. It still looks dressed up today, but if you really love that classic look, then it's as far as you can push it. I wouldn't wear a suit to the office if I was going to be the only person in a suit, but I'm comfortable being the only person in a sport coat.
 

smittycl

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I can't get over how most loafers and Derbies are just so damn ugly...
I’ve really gotten into loafers over the past few years and wear them with suits, sport coats, and more casual outfits. I think they look good and are very versatile. I’m sure you could find a pair you liked.
 

rjc149

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It just feels vanilla bland to me.
I wonder if you'd be as polite in describing my suit closet.

If I worked in a business casual environment year-round, I would own a rotation of brown dress shoes and sport jackets. It's not my dislike of the outfit, it's the lack of current personal necessity for it. I do actually like the outfit you described.

Since business casual for me is only on Fridays in summer, days on which I eagerly shed any outer layer, a sport coat is not a worthwhile investment. In cooler weather, I prefer a thick shawl-collar cardigan for nicer casualwear, which also builds up the torso, is more practical (warmer) in chilly weather, and never makes you overdressed.
 

dieworkwear

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I wonder if you'd be as polite in describing my suit closet.

If I worked in a business casual environment year-round, I would own a rotation of brown dress shoes and sport jackets. It's not my dislike of the outfit, it's the lack of current personal necessity for it. I do actually like the outfit you described.

Since business casual for me is only on Fridays in summer, days on which I eagerly shed any outer layer, a sport coat is not a worthwhile investment. In cooler weather, I prefer a thick shawl-collar cardigan for nicer casualwear, which also builds up the torso, is more practical (warmer) in chilly weather, and never makes you overdressed.
I like conservative suits. There used to be a member here named Manton that championed something he called Conservative Business Dress. I like that look, although I think the sphere for that kind of look is continually shrinking, as many offices have become increasingly casual. But if someone can still wear suits to work, I think they often do better in that conservative suit, dark foulard, white shirt, and oxford look.
 

acapaca

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There's no real place for blue suede oxfords, assuming you value that era of style (again, meaning tailored clothing from the 1930s to 80s, with the exclusion of the 70s). Blue suede oxfords just don't make any sense in that kind of historic style, as the color and style are inherent contradictions.
I have a pair of blue suede oxfords from the early part of that era. What do you imagine they were used for?

IMG_20200411_153625.jpg
 

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