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Pairing oxford shoes with chinos

TheChihuahua

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I don't get the anti-rules sentiment. Everyone has style/clothing ideas that they believe with enough conviction that they could functionally be called a rule. I think everyone here would agree that wearing Crocs with a suit is an awful look and should never be done.

There's too much arguing about whether rules exist (a semantic debate, they functionally do) and who has the authority to make the rules, and not enough discussion about what the rules actually say and what concepts inform them.

Seems like folks are butthurt someone told them the way they've been dressing isn't ideal and that they've invested too much money (and their personal style identity) in oxfords over loafers and derbies.
because igents making up rules on the internet based on their preferences is ridiculous.

it’s one thing to say “generally speaking cotton chinos and black cap toe oxfords might not be a good look..”

it’s another thing to say that the ONLY use for Oxford style shoes that is acceptable according to THE RULES is while wearing a suit and tie.

pretty arrogant of somebody to think they get to just make up these type of rules (especially when they are deal wrong about how it looks)

I think we can all agree that the Oxford is clearly the better choice in these photos:

1A75448D-1987-4CCC-AD7A-B219D6CD5380.jpeg

C600E102-4FF4-4749-B737-6D5D0A5C0102.jpeg
 

mak1277

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hahahah

yeah, dude wants us to dress like some 1930’s cosplay outfit.

I don’t think the “Biz Caj Plus” look that he is advocating on his blog fits this era all that well either, so not sure what “rules” he thinks count amd which don’t. I know that the sports coat was a popular casual/weekend item, but the more recent phenomenon of transforming it into professional workplace doesn’t really fit into the 1930’s to 1950’s cosplay idea. So the whole notion of pushing a “Biz Caj Plus” outfit yet holding it to casual country weekend wear from the 1930’s seems silly.

seems to me like the “Biz Caj Plus” is somewhat of a hybrid between the country weekend wear of the 1930’a (sports coat, trousers, derbies or loafers) while being stepped up as a replacement for suits in the work place (hence dress it up with oxfords).

meaning: if you are going to subscribe to “Biz Caj Plus” you might be best off wearing oxfords to take it to a higher level of formality than casual weekend sports coat lion of the 1930’s and 50’s.
Random question, apropos of nothing...have you ever heard anyone actually say "biz caj" in real life?
 

TheChihuahua

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Random question, apropos of nothing...have you ever heard anyone actually say "biz caj" in real life?
yeah. It was pretty popular saying in a joking manner when it was making its way into the work place 20 years ago in NYC. At least among people I know. A sweet pair of cotton khakis and a button down shirt and some cemented rubber sole derbies, the uniform of “Biz Caj”
 

mak1277

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yeah. It was pretty popular saying in a joking manner when it was making its way into the work place 20 years ago in NYC. At least among people I know. A sweet pair of cotton khakis and a button down shirt and some cemented rubber sole derbies, the uniform of “Biz Caj”
well it sounds fucking stupid
 

TheChihuahua

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well it sounds fucking stupid
it is stupid. As stupid as saying the ONLY use of Oxford shoes is pairing them with a suit and tie being said bg some dude pushing his Biz Caj Plus agenda making up fake igent rules.
 

rjc149

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Business casual with a tie and jacket isn’t business casual. Just wear a suit.
 

Loathing

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it is stupid. As stupid as saying the ONLY use of Oxford shoes is pairing them with a suit and tie being said bg some dude pushing his Biz Caj Plus agenda making up fake igent rules.
You seem to a have fundamental problem with the idea of rules in clothing and yet you also clearly have your own set of rules that you follow.

Maybe it will help if I substitute the word “rules” with “norms”, which can be used synonymously.

It was the norm in what is often considered the golden age of menswear to wear certain combinations of clothing items, determined largely by the formality of the occasion and the seasons. These norms are documented in thousands of pictures in iconic magazines like Apparel Arts and early issues of Esquire, as well of thousands of photos, some of which were shared by DWW and feature on Voxsartoria’s website. There is a community of people today who admire those norms and think they still look good today, and that they look good partly because they form part of an coherent scheme of norms. The idea of dressing perfectly from head to toe for the occasion and the season is a satisfying concept for many.

Your own personal rules for what you think looks good do not fit within the scheme of norms outlined above. That’s fine, but don’t pretend these norms are made up by iGents or that they are a matter of opinion. Their existence is a matter of fact that has been abundantly evidenced. You don’t have to follow them but it doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
 

Panama

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I don't have black cords but I wear my grey cords with dark brown boots, suede LWBs and dark brown penny loafers.
I don't like dress leather loafers, and I will have to get into boots more...
 

TheChihuahua

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You seem to a have fundamental problem with the idea of rules in clothing and yet you also clearly have your own set of rules that you follow.

Maybe it will help if I substitute the word “rules” with “norms”, which can be used synonymously.

It was the norm in what is often considered the golden age of menswear to wear certain combinations of clothing items, determined largely by the formality of the occasion and the seasons. These norms are documented in thousands of pictures in iconic magazines like Apparel Arts and early issues of Esquire, as well of thousands of photos, some of which were shared by DWW and feature on Voxsartoria’s website. There is a community of people today who admire those norms and think they still look good today, and that they look good partly because they form part of an coherent scheme of norms. The idea of dressing perfectly from head to toe for the occasion and the season is a satisfying concept for many.

Your own personal rules for what you think looks good do not fit within the scheme of norms outlined above. That’s fine, but don’t pretend these norms are made up by iGents or that they are a matter of opinion. Their existence is a matter of fact that has been abundantly evidenced. You don’t have to follow them but it doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
well the “golden age of menswear” wouldn’t have men wearing sports coats and dress trousers and derby shoes to work in a professional environment, so your whole theory is sort of bunk at that point…

and classic menswear isn’t about cosplay. If you want to dress like Beau Brummell, or Perry mason, be my guest. But the way those guys dressed don’tcreate any “rules”

fair enough if one want to say something looks better than another look. That’s fine. But when that person says it’s a “rule” that they are simply making up (yes, in this case it is a made up rule), well that’s quite arrogant for one to think they are entitled to do.

I’m going to declare it against the rules to wear sports coats and dress trousers and derby shoes in professional environments because professionals in 1925 didn’t do that. Oh wait, that would be absurd on my part so I’m not going to do that.
 

Panama

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I certainly don't mean to come down on anyone’s style choices, and I understand the resistance to being hemmed in by previous generations’ choices.

But I’ve increasingly felt that I was really pushing it whenever I wore oxfords outside of a suit; I’d have this vague sense of unease about it. DWW’s posts in this thread kind of put my unease into words (or, I guess, crystallized my thinking on the subject).

I don’t think you'll necessarily look “bad” if you wear oxfords outside of a suit, but I've personally come to feel more in tune by not doing so. PTBs and derbies generally fit my style (such as it is) and certainly my wardrobe much better. (And as a corollary I thought maybe this is why men for generations have tended to reserve oxfords for suits.)
I can't get over how most loafers and Derbies are just so damn ugly...
 

emptym

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Black derby dress shoes polished to a mirror sheen are absolutely appropriate with a business suit in even the most conservative environments. So are black wingtips and brogues, in either closed or open lace configuration.
...
Spot on. I've worn some highly polished (though not a pure mirror shine) pair of plain toe bluchers recently with both grey and navy suits, and nobody batted an eye...
... I wore my alden long-wings with a grey suit a month ago - and received a couple compliments....
and that's your choice. Others choose a different path. You don't agree with that and nothing wrong with that. But your disagreement is simply your opinion, not a fact
No one has argued that you shouldn't wear derbies, bluchers, or long-wings, with a suit. That was celebrated, including DWW (below as well as in several posts and pics). DWW's only assertion is that oxfords should, traditionally speaking, not be worn with anything but a suit. As @Loathing wrote well, this is not simply opinion, but a social norm, one that was commonly known and followed at least till the last 10-20 years. Men's hats started to die out in the late 50s, but oxfords w/ chinos is very recent.
...Have no idea why people keep saying that they wear casual shoes with suits. I've made this point over and over again that there's a rich tradition of men wearing boots, loafers, and derbies with suits. But oxfords were traditionally kept to suits, and not worn with sport coats. Again, you can browse through Voxsartoria's website and Apparel Arts magazines to see what I mean.
well it sounds fucking stupid
+1 mill. "biz caj" may be the most irritating spelling I've ever seen. I thought TC had invented the phrase, but now I see he's just a follower.
You seem to a have fundamental problem with the idea of rules in clothing and yet you also clearly have your own set of rules that you follow.

Maybe it will help if I substitute the word “rules” with “norms”, which can be used synonymously.

It was the norm in what is often considered the golden age of menswear to wear certain combinations of clothing items, determined largely by the formality of the occasion and the seasons. These norms are documented in thousands of pictures in iconic magazines like Apparel Arts and early issues of Esquire, as well of thousands of photos, some of which were shared by DWW and feature on Voxsartoria’s website. There is a community of people today who admire those norms and think they still look good today, and that they look good partly because they form part of an coherent scheme of norms. The idea of dressing perfectly from head to toe for the occasion and the season is a satisfying concept for many.

Your own personal rules for what you think looks good do not fit within the scheme of norms outlined above. That’s fine, but don’t pretend these norms are made up by iGents or that they are a matter of opinion. Their existence is a matter of fact that has been abundantly evidenced. You don’t have to follow them but it doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
Well said. To persist in thinking DWW invented these norms is foolish and self-deceptive.
 

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