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Pairing oxford shoes with chinos

Phileas Fogg

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Fair enough.

To me, this look is terrible. The outfit actually isn't that bad, but the shoes totally ruin it. It's like an outfit trying to be nice, but then shoes that are just out of place and clunky and drag everything down. Is he dressed up? Or is he casual? Or is this some sort of family picture day where he is wearing something that would never be worn in a real world setting and the shoes are trying to keep it more low key than a professional setting (the srot of forced church outfit that you reference)? This is the worst among what you have posted (besides the clownish examples), in my opinion.


View attachment 1608845
what do you think HRH Andrew was thinking about?
 

TheChihuahua

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It's not his rule. As he mentioned, it's a common, traditional rule. I've lived in New England and California for several yrs each, and I'd say there would be many more men in NE than CA who would be familiar with the common, traditional rule that oxfords are best worn with suits.
A common traditional rule like "no brown in town" or "broguing on shoes are only for country shoes"? If so, I would call that an archaic rule that has no bearing on today (or the past half century). And to try to apply it in 2021, might as well be talking Beau Brummell rules.

Now the second part, I would agree with. Oxfords are best worn with suits. Most oxfords are more formal and are best worn with suits.
But that's not what DWW was saying. He was saying "oxfords only with suits," which is a made up rule (or at least in today's society it is not a real rule and DWW is just waxing poetic about rules from 70-100 years ago).
 

ValidusLA

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A common traditional rule like "no brown in town" or "broguing on shoes are only for country shoes"? If so, I would call that an archaic rule that has no bearing on today (or the past half century). And to try to apply it in 2021, might as well be talking Beau Brummell rules.

Now the second part, I would agree with. Oxfords are best worn with suits. Most oxfords are more formal and are best worn with suits.
But that's not what DWW was saying. He was saying "oxfords only with suits," which is a made up rule (or at least in today's society it is not a real rule and DWW is just waxing poetic about rules from 70-100 years ago).
Rules definitely evolve, but you are conflating ideas from different generations and presenting them as all concurrent.

"No brown in Town" has been dead for about 100 years. From Dressing the Man:

"While black dress shoes have always been considered de rigueur for dark dressy suitings, dark brown offers equal refinement, if not superior style. Regardless of their luster, black dress shoes will always lack the antiqued brown's deep patina and changing highlights. Just as any article placed on a polished mahogany tabletop immediately acquires an expensive aura, top-quality brown leather shoes invest all fabrics with an intangible richness.
In 1936, the leather antiquing process was finally refined to the point where it spurred acceptance of the dark brown shoe for dressy worsted wear. [. . .]
The Boston Brahmins have long appreciated the eccentric yet classy habit of mating brown cap toes with navy or charcoal suits. And the Milanese male, considered by present day style arbiters as the most sophisticated dresser in the sock-wearing world, is almost fanatical in favoring brown lace-ups over black. He is vigilant that his saddle-tanned business bench-mades are bone-polished for the week's work, reserving his brown suedes for the more leisurely activities of the weekend."

The fact you think "no brown in town" is a rule prescient to this conversation tells me you must be....I don't know...maybe reading the Gentleman's Gazette or something?
 

ValidusLA

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Also, I must mea culpa, the photo I posted of Oxfords on a single page was actually from Bernhard Roetzel. Flusser doesn't have a one page outlay of the 4 types.
 

TheChihuahua

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Rules definitely evolve, but you are conflating ideas from different generations and presenting them as all concurrent.

"No brown in Town" has been dead for about 100 years. From Dressing the Man:

"While black dress shoes have always been considered de rigueur for dark dressy suitings, dark brown offers equal refinement, if not superior style. Regardless of their luster, black dress shoes will always lack the antiqued brown's deep patina and changing highlights. Just as any article placed on a polished mahogany tabletop immediately acquires an expensive aura, top-quality brown leather shoes invest all fabrics with an intangible richness.
In 1936, the leather antiquing process was finally refined to the point where it spurred acceptance of the dark brown shoe for dressy worsted wear. [. . .]
The Boston Brahmins have long appreciated the eccentric yet classy habit of mating brown cap toes with navy or charcoal suits. And the Milanese male, considered by present day style arbiters as the most sophisticated dresser in the sock-wearing world, is almost fanatical in favoring brown lace-ups over black. He is vigilant that his saddle-tanned business bench-mades are bone-polished for the week's work, reserving his brown suedes for the more leisurely activities of the weekend."

The fact you think "no brown in town" is a rule prescient to this conversation tells me you must be....I don't know...maybe reading the Gentleman's Gazette or something?
a rule such as “oxfords only with suits” is straight up gentleman’s gazette (I am glad we can all be on board with laughing at that), and is as real a rule as “no brown in town” or “top hats must be worn with tuxedos”

And I like allan Flusser well enough, but really does anybody care what he has to say? Aren’t his clothes manufactured in Chinese sweatshops? What relevance does he have in 2021? Gordon Gekko was over a quarter of a century ago.
 

ValidusLA

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a rule such as “oxfords only with suits” is straight up gentleman’s gazette (I am glad we can all be on board with laughing at that), and is as real a rule as “no brown in town” or “top hats must be worn with tuxedos”
You're not following. They are not commensurately "real."

Just using Flusser as an example to stay intellecutally coherent and discuss the same point. He clearly advocates oxfords pairing with suits and very clearly indicates no brown in town is not a thing.

No brown in town is a 19th century relic tied up with materials selection and the habits of the country nobility.

Oxfords go with suits is contemporary to today.

You cannot continue to conflate the two as equal without demonstrating willful obtuseness.
 

dieworkwear

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a rule such as “oxfords only with suits” is straight up gentleman’s gazette (I am glad we can all be on board with laughing at that), and is as real a rule as “no brown in town” or “top hats must be worn with tuxedos”

And I like allan Flusser well enough, but really does anybody care what he has to say? Aren’t his clothes manufactured in Chinese sweatshops? What relevance does he have in 2021? Gordon Gekko was over a quarter of a century ago.
I don't like using the term rule, but if we're to use the term, then why discuss classic men's style on this forum at all? If we're to dismiss all classic "rules" as being as antiquated as "no brown in town," then why even discuss this topic on this board?

Inherent in the idea of discussing classic men's style is to talk about the guidelines that help achieve that look.

There's no "rule" in classic men's style that can't be attacked along these lines because classic men's style is mostly dead in modern contexts. So everything is antiquated.
 

ValidusLA

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I am now unclean. I went and looked up what GG boy Sven has to say:

PER: https://www.gentlemansgazette.com/oxford-shoes-guide/
"The Wingtip Oxford / Brogue
Wingtips or Brogues are considered to be more casual than the Cap Toe. In black, it can be worn to the office but in dark brown it becomes more versatile because you may now combine them with tweed, and other more casual outfits and looks, including jeans. Especially in shades of brown, these are great for the office in non-white collar environments, sportcoat / blazer ensembles. A dark brown brogue in suede is probably one of the 2nd or third shoes you should buy after you have invested in a black cap toe Oxford."

It seems, in fact, that the Gazette is on your side of the equation, not ours. So maybe stop saying we are spouting Gazette rules?
 

ValidusLA

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It gets grosser:

"The Plain & Cap Toe Oxfords
These days the Cap Toe Oxford is often acceptable at less traditional Black Tie events and with dark evening suits. However, traditionally these are the quintessential dress shoes for your day – to – day suits and business wear. They can also be worn when you want to add a dash of sophistication to your casual dress options like chinos and a blazer. It is not recommended to wear black with denim. Cognac, mid-brown, cherry or oxblood serve this purpose much better."

As you can see, the stipulation "Oxfords with suits" is far removed from GG, who is apparently advocating oxblood and cognac plain toe oxfords with jeans. Which....holy shit, I don't even know.
 

TheChihuahua

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I am now unclean. I went and looked up what GG boy Sven has to say:

PER: https://www.gentlemansgazette.com/oxford-shoes-guide/
"The Wingtip Oxford / Brogue
Wingtips or Brogues are considered to be more casual than the Cap Toe. In black, it can be worn to the office but in dark brown it becomes more versatile because you may now combine them with tweed, and other more casual outfits and looks, including jeans. Especially in shades of brown, these are great for the office in non-white collar environments, sportcoat / blazer ensembles. A dark brown brogue in suede is probably one of the 2nd or third shoes you should buy after you have invested in a black cap toe Oxford."

It seems, in fact, that the Gazette is on your side of the equation, not ours. So maybe stop saying we are spouting Gazette rules?
hey, you are the one who soiled yourself looking at that site.
And the whole notion of creating the “rules” to be an igent you tube authority is where it gets comical. (ie, trying to be a rules authority)

and why discuss “classic menswear” if we aren’t going to follow rules? Well I guess we all get something different out of these discussions. One thing I don’t care about is the 1930-1960’s looks. They aren’t bad per se, but I don’t view them as any sort of authority as to what is proper than say the 1980’s banker look that Alan Flusser made famous with Gordon, or newer looks of Simon crompton wearing oxfords without a suit. Or looks of better dressed gentleman at the country clubs that I recall seeing when younger (wingtip oxford with golf pants and a polo was seen plenty, heck the foot joy classic golf shoes were leather soled wingtips back then).

like I have said, I do agree that generally oxfords work better with suits. But some rule of “oxfords only with suits” is either some made up gentleman’s gazette type BS or something comical in today’s world like “no brown in town.” There are too many less formal oxfords out there to say it’s against the rules to wear them without a suit.
 

ValidusLA

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hey, you are the one who soiled yourself looking at that site.
And the whole notion of creating the “rules” to be an igent you tube authority is where it gets comical. (ie, trying to be a rules authority)
Well you forced my hand.

You keep saying nonsense like this, despite the fact I just disproved it!

But some rule of “oxfords only with suits” is either some made up gentleman’s gazette type BS
It is, quite visibly, not some GG type stuff.
 

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