Opinions please on this take on Black Tie from Prince Charles

[palladio211]

Originally Posted by John Ellis

Precisely the look I hanker after and mentioned above ie. the Charles Ryder look. I'm obviously mixing in the wrong circles. Maybe they are less well heeled. The thing about dinner jackets is most people buy them and wear them for years, some inherit them, because they are worn so infrequently. Some of the events I've been to have a time warp element to them. I've certainly worn a real wing with a db over there in the past five years and didn't get the Bateman treatment. I don't suppose I'm ever going to get invited to one of Manton's parties so I'm not at risk.

I can relate to the "time warp" element. I am nearly identical in size to my father. I have been wearing various items of his formal attire for years, and now keep most of it as he doesn't attend many formal events in his retirement. Perhaps my favorite article of clothing is a shawl collared dinner jacket in burgundy velvet that was custom made for him by Tripler's back in the late 50's or early 60's. It's a bit Hugh Hefneresque, and for a while I was afraid to wear it to anything other than maybe a Christmas party. However, I received so many compliments when wearing it, especially from women, that I now wear it to social black tie functions whenever I feel like it. Maybe Hugh was onto something after all. Despite all the "rules", I think it can be acceptable (not to mention fun) to wear something a bit different to a black tie cocktail party or similar social event. So if you want to wear db with a wing collar or whatever, why not? I think part of pulling this off is to do it well - with beautifully made clothes that fit. The "after six" wing collar with clip on tie is not going to cut it with db, but do it right with the boiled collar and a made to size tie and you won't be such an easy target. In my experience, the only problem with boiled wing collars is that they aren't particularly comfortable due to their height and stiffness. Plus it can be a real ***** to get the thing on without assistance. I guess that's why the Charles Ryder set employed valets.

Oh, and the only "wrong" circles are ones in which you aren't enjoying the company or conversation.

 

[John Ellis]

Originally Posted by palladio211

I can relate to the "time warp" element.

I am nearly identical in size to my father. I have been wearing various items of his formal attire for years, and now keep most of it as he doesn't attend many formal events in his retirement. Perhaps my favorite article of clothing is a shawl collared dinner jacket in burgundy velvet that was custom made for him by Tripler's back in the late 50's or early 60's. It's a bit Hugh Hefneresque, and for a while I was afraid to wear it to anything other than maybe a Christmas party. However, I received so many compliments when wearing it, especially from women, that I now wear it to social black tie functions whenever I feel like it. Maybe Hugh was onto something after all.

Despite all the "rules", I think it can be acceptable (not to mention fun) to wear something a bit different to a black tie cocktail party or similar social event. So if you want to wear db with a wing collar or whatever, why not? I think part of pulling this off is to do it well - with beautifully made clothes that fit. The "after six" wing collar with clip on tie is not going to cut it with db, but do it right with the boiled collar and a made to size tie and you won't be such an easy target.

In my experience, the only problem with boiled wing collars is that they aren't particularly comfortable due to their height and stiffness. Plus it can be a real ***** to get the thing on without assistance. I guess that's why the Charles Ryder set employed valets.

Oh, and the only "wrong" circles are ones in which you aren't enjoying the company or conversation.

Yes they can be a bit uncomfortable but sometimes you have to be prepared to suffer for your art! I've actually got the knack of getting the stud through both ends off pat. Probably due to the fact that I wore nothing else but stiff detachable collars when I was young man in the sixties. They were already an anachronism but some of us held on. I lived in England at the time and there were still plenty of Chinese laundries that specialized in this type of collar. Now I have to have mine laundered in London so if anyone knows where you can get them done in NYC please tell me. I have about 20 both regular type and evening wing, don't laugh, mostly purchased from Harvie and Hudson or Budd. HH tell me one of their best customers for these used to be Senator John Tower. Remember him, small and exceptionally libidinous. So far they are not bringing much benefit in that dept. Perhaps I'll have to invest in a burgundy velvet dinner jacket.

 

[palladio211]

Originally Posted by John Ellis

Now I have to have mine laundered in London so if anyone knows where you can get them done in NYC please tell me.

I've never had one of these collars laundered in NYC, but you might try calling Jeeves of Belgravia cleaners.

Jeeves of Belgravia
39 E 65TH St
New York, NY 10065-6517
Phone: (212) 570-9130

They are expensive as heck, but they could likely do the job or refer you to someone in NYC who could.

I generally only use them a few times a year to clean my better bespoke suits, or when I have a stain the regular cleaners just can't get out.

 

[John Ellis]

Originally Posted by palladio211

I've never had one of these collars laundered in NYC, but you might try calling Jeeves of Belgravia cleaners.

Jeeves of Belgravia
39 E 65TH St
New York, NY 10065-6517
Phone: (212) 570-9130

They are expensive as heck, but they could likely do the job or refer you to someone in NYC who could.

I generally only use them a few times a year to clean my better bespoke suits, or when I have a stain the regular cleaners just can't get out.

Thanks for the info, I'll check it out. Well Tom Wolffe must have his done somewhere. I'm interested that you have expensive suits cleaned. I must say I never do. It totally destroys them in my experience. I've relied on infrequent wearing, the occasional steam which I have had done professionally but usually do myself and sponging off the odd soup stain. I've got stuff that's 25 years old, smells as fresh as a daisy and looks more or less like the day I bought it apart from that nice slightly fit's me look.

 

[A Y]

I'm pleased that no one has yet commented on PoW's patent pumps. See how unobtrusive they are in the context of the entire outfit, and yet add that last bit of elegance?

--Andre

 

[John Ellis]

Originally Posted by Andre Yew

I'm pleased that no one has yet commented on PoW's patent pumps. See how unobtrusive they are in the context of the entire outfit, and yet add that last bit of elegance?

--Andre

You are dead right. They look very good. As it happens my patent dress shoes are getting a bit ancient and because I have sometimes put them away and forgotten them without smearing a bit of vaseline on the crease lines there are a few tiny flakes of patent that have come off. I'd definitely go this route when and if I look for replacement.

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by Andre Yew

I'm pleased that no one has yet commented on PoW's patent pumps. See how unobtrusive they are in the context of the entire outfit, and yet add that last bit of elegance?

--Andre

I agree...pumps all the way.

I kinda think those are polished calf and not patent, though, based on the reflection...I could be projecting because I wear calf pumps instead of patent.

- B

 

[dopey]

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

I agree...pumps all the way.

I kinda think those are polished calf and not patent, though, based on the reflection...I could be projecting because that's I wear calf pumps instead of patent.

- B
I wear neither, but if I had the choice, it would be calf pumps.

 

[grimslade]

I think the Prince looks terrific.

Originally Posted by Manton

I would love to do the 3 piece SB peak with a proper wing collar. I've never actually gotten to the point where I've talked myself into ordering one, however, because when the idea starts to migrate to the front of my brain, I quickly tell myself how impractical it is.

This is my currently favorite get up. If Manton didn't keep me standing me up at black-tie events, he could see it in person.

 

[palladio211]

Originally Posted by John Ellis

Precisely the look I hanker after and mentioned above ie. the Charles Ryder look. :

So a neighbor loaned me their disc set of Brideshead Revisited yesterday and I fast forwarded to the formal/evening scenes.

When in black tie, everyone is wearing a detachable wing collar, single breasted jackets with peaked lapels and vests. The vests vary somewhat, and I couldn't tell from the screen resolution whether they were silk or wool.

If we assume the filmmakers did their research properly, this must have been the style of the time. Since these men all would have had formal (white tie) dress, it makes sense that they would have just used the same shirts for black tie evenings.

The only thing that seemed odd, was that nearly all the characters except for Charles Ryder wore their collar wings in front of (or over if you will) their ties. I was taught by my grandfather that the wings were to go behind the tie and sort of hold it in position. I wonder if the filmmakers and/or costume people just go this wrong, or if there is more to it than that.

Also, the single breasted dinner jackets had very wide lapels. I suppose that was also just a style of the time.

How wide should proper peaked lapels be on a sb dinner jacket so that they remain relatively "classic" over the years?

 

[Bird's One View]

... nearly all the characters except for Charles Ryder wore their collar wings in front of (or over if you will) their ties. I was taught by my grandfather that the wings were to go behind the tie and sort of hold it in position. I wonder if the filmmakers and/or costume people just go this wrong, or if there is more to it than that.

The wings were historically worn both ways. Individuals had their preferences, but there was no universal rule. With a taller collar I prefer the wings in front of / over the tie. Modern, soft, low, attached wing collars don't work unless the wings are tucked behind the tie, but you shouldn't wear those anyway.

How wide should proper peaked lapels be on a sb dinner jacket so that they remain relatively "classic" over the years?

I advise you to look at a lot of pictures from as many periods as possible. (If you haven't yet, start with blacktieguide.com.) When in doubt, go wide. Too-narrow peak lapels look terrible. The lapels should stretch AT LEAST half the distance from the V to the shoulder seam. Note that older jackets usually have the shoulder seams closer to the centerline than modern jackets, so the lapels do not need to be huge to accomplish this.