Open Collar Shirt Question

[Parker]

Hello shirt fans,

Apologies if this topic has been covered already, but I couldn't find much about it in the archives. My question is about wearing dress shirts without a tie (both with a suit and without).

I rarely wear ties, but do like to don dress shirts typically with a spread collar and no front placket. I usually leave the top 2 buttons (collar and first button) open because I like the look of casual ease. Some of my shirt collars seem to hold their stance nicely while others seem to droop or fall to one side. I wondered if there I something I should look for in shirts to help the collar stay in it's upright position. I also wondered if the type of interlining in the shirt front has something to do with this or is it the collar shape or size. Though I prefer the clean look of the plain shirt front, should look for shirts with the French front stitched placket instead? Is there interlining even in a plain front shirt?

Based on the recommendations of many people here, I have actually begun to create an order for a custom shirt at Jantzen Tailor. I wondered if I should specify a certain interlining (hard or regular) or placket type to help my open-collar wearing habit. And if lighter or heavier fabrics might help or hinder.

ps. I've been checking out the Forum for some time. This is my first post. As other new members have metioned, I've learned more than I ever thought I would or could about sartorial details. So thanks to all.

P

 

[Alexander Kabbaz]

The right front of a dress shirt never has interlining. Though your thoughts are in the right direction, the interlining question is therefore not germane to the issue. What you want is commonly known as a "sport front" or a front with inside facings. In outward appearance it is the same as a plain, or French, front. On the interior, there are wide strips (about 3" wide) which run from the hem all the way up to the yoke. This adds the necessary support for the collar to remain in place. As to why some collars "stay up" when others fall, the answer lies in the interior construction of the band to leaf joint of the collar. No mass M-T-M maker is going to change the way they do that to accomodate your desire. Best to stick with a brand which you have found works. Regretfully, there is also no mass M-T-M maker with whom I am familiar who will do the inside facings. You really need a custom maker such as Paris, Cego, Anto, or Geneva. If you want to get further education on the subject, check out the following links: http://customshirt1.com/ Click on Custom Shirts http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/F...?TOPIC_ID=3939 http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/F...?TOPIC_ID=3837 A Treatise on the Art of Making Custom Shirts: http://customshirt1.com/StyleForum_AskAndy01.htm The Steps Required to Make A Custom Shirt: http://customshirt1.com/StyleForum_AskAndy02.htm Shirt Fitting: http://www.styleforum.net/cgi-bin....78&st=0

 

[FIHTies]

If you want to get further education on the subject, check out the following links: http://customshirt1.com/ Â Click on Custom Shirts http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/F...?TOPIC_ID=3939 http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/F...?TOPIC_ID=3837 A Treatise on the Art of Making Custom Shirts: http://customshirt1.com/StyleForum_AskAndy01.htm The Steps Required to Make A Custom Shirt: http://customshirt1.com/StyleForum_AskAndy02.htm Shirt Fitting: http://www.styleforum.net/cgi-bin....78&st=0

Anything in there about shirts?

JJF

 

[Alexander Kabbaz]

No. It is mostly back and forth banter between JCusey and David Bresch.

 

[FIHTies]

No. It is mostly back and forth banter between JCusey and David Bresch. Â

LOL.....

JJF

 

[Parker]

Wow, thanks for the links. It may take me some time to absorb the level of detail there.

Mr. Kabbaz, I found this quote from one of the previous posts:
"...if I am making a shirt designed to be worn sans cravat I shall use a different type of collar design entirely ... one which is meant to be worn open ... and which is designed with the strength to lay properly without being dependent upon the shirts first button. These shirts usually have an interlined facing on the inside of the front center designed to make the front "roll" out to the collar line - somewhat like a lapel."

This seems to be what I'm after. Is there a particular collar style which might be better suited than a British-style spread? This facing on the inside front center sounds like it would help keep the nice roll up the collar. Would this be present in any off-the-rack shirts or is it strictly a custom-shop detail?

Thanks, again.

 

[JDMcDaniel]

Alex:

Of what material are this inter-facing generally made and wouldn't it be visible at the collar when worn open?

Also, is there a reason it needs to be added to the entire front of the shirt, rather than just beginning at the highest button one intends to leave buttoned?

 

[Alexander Kabbaz]

Parker

Is there a particular collar style which might be better suited than a British-style spread? This facing on the inside front center sounds like it would help keep the nice roll up the collar. Would this be present in any off-the-rack shirts or is it strictly a custom-shop detail?

It works with any collar. I have never seen it in R-T-W ... but come to think of it, it's been a long time since I've had to touch any R-T-W. TGFT. JDMcDaniel

Of what material are this inter-facing generally made and wouldn't it be visible at the collar when worn open? Also, is there a reason it needs to be added to the entire front of the shirt, rather than just beginning at the highest button one intends to leave buttoned?

The facing is often multiple plies. One material is the same material as the shirt; the other is a light cotton interlining. There is a reason it is added to the entire front of the shirt. It is the same reason that bridge supports begin on the rock at the bottom of the water and not at the level of the roadway ... support must be from a point upon which one can rest. That point, in this case, would be the shirt hem.

 

[JDMcDaniel]

Thanks Alex.

Is the inter-facing made to roll as it approaches the collar through ironing and stitching or through being just stiff enough to be bent somewhat by gravity while still fighting it somewhat?

Are these shirts more difficult to button through the inter-lining? I would assume the buttons would require a shank.

This discussion has jogged my memory... I have seen a white bespoke shirt made in this manner. Its wearer did not have an undershirt on and the inter-facing created a 6'' vertical stripe of white up the front of the shirt. The rest was slightly darker due to his olive skin tone. It wasn't the best look.

 

[Alexander Kabbaz]

JDMcDaniel

Is the inter-facing made to roll as it approaches the collar through ironing and stitching or through being just stiff enough to be bent somewhat by gravity while still fighting it somewhat? Are these shirts more difficult to button through the inter-lining? I would assume the buttons would require a shank.

The interfacing merely adds sufficient strength to the front of the shirt to enable it to support the collar. The interfacing is normally made of the same fabric as the shirt itself. The fact that it is attached to the yoke is what gives it the support. The interfacing does not add sufficient thickness to require any different method of buttoning.

This discussion has jogged my memory... I have seen a white bespoke shirt made in this manner. Its wearer did not have an undershirt on and the inter-facing created a 6'' vertical stripe of white up the front of the shirt. The rest was slightly darker due to his olive skin tone. It wasn't the best look.

That wasn't a bespoke shirt. That was a shirt we have a technical name for in the trade. It is called a 'stupid shirt'. This treatment was not meant to be used on translucent white shirts worn by olive-skinned men any more than 170's 2x2 voiles were meant to be worn my a bra-less Dolly Parton. Did I manage to capture the essence of 'not the best look' in your opinion?

 

[JDMcDaniel]

Thanks as always Alex. So the width of the internlining should be enough that it reaches the yoke, rather than the collar band?

And why exactly shouldn't we be encouraging the Dolly Partons of the world to wear those 170 TC violes? I bet we could get more contributions for the SF if you promised to start pumping out those shirts.

 

[Alexander Kabbaz]

JD The interfacing curves back to the yoke from about the 1st front button on up.

And why exactly shouldn't we be encouraging the Dolly Partons of the world to wear those 170 TC violes? I bet we could get more contributions for the SF if you promised to start pumping out those shirts.

- No Comment. (Happily married - Joelle reads SF) Did you say ... 'pumping'?