Online MTM Operations - How close can they ever get to Bespoke?

[unbelragazzo]

To continue the discussion here:

http://www.styleforum.net/t/306810/...ze-ongoing-front-page-contest/90#post_5611554

How close do you think online MTM can ever get to bespoke in fit? I think in terms of satisfying customer preferences for silhouette, online MTM can never really get there. I also think that it makes a big difference if they have somebody that they employ or are affiliated with that will take customer measurements, rather than having customers submit their own measurements, which are all over the place.

For the sake of clarity in this thread, let's discuss coats (and trousers I suppose), as shirts present different issues in my view.

 

[lee_44106]

To many assumptions.

Not all "bespoke" will result in the magical perfect fitting that gets you on Styleforum. Not even close. There's plenty of disaster bespoke outfits


I believe that if you take the best online MTM service, and given enough time & fitting with their accompanying trial & error, you could get very close to that of the ideal bespoke.


That said, everything hinges ultimately on the body shape of the wearer. Odd sizes/shapes/builds will be more difficult for the online MTM.

 

[celery]

I don't think it's too far away. The technology is basically available - think kinect, PSMove. If you could 3D image your body at home with one of those devices (or a next gen one) you should be able to upload 100% accurate measurements from a single scan with a 360 degree silhouette for the tailor to view your posture and such. You could even include movement.

Of course, some enterprising tailor would have to adapt this into their business model.

 

[b1os]



I don't think it's too far away. The technology is basically available - think kinect, PSMove. If you could 3D image your body at home with one of those devices (or a next gen one) you should be able to upload 100% accurate measurements from a single scan with a 360 degree silhouette for the tailor to view your posture and such. You could even include movement.
Of course, some enterprising tailor would have to adapt this into their business model.

ragazzo should have added this to the OP:

I'm interested in this too. I thought William Field's answer from my interview with him was interesting:
What's the difference between bespoke and made-to-measure? Why is it so hard for the online sites doing made-to-measure to replicate the fit of true bespoke?
They're not really seeing the person's form. Measuring someone is not just a snapshot. As you're measuring someone, you're asking them about styling, measuring them again, seeing how they move. And at some point in that measuring process, they'll relax a little bit, and then you'll really get to see their form. They're not ramrod straight anymore or sucking in their gut so much, they're relaxed a bit more, and you'll really see the pitch. Maybe they seem down right a half an inch, which is typical, but then they relax and you'll see, it's really three-quarters of an inch. So those computers, like the ones that will do a scan of you, measure you in a static pose, and when you're not very relaxed. Then when you relax, the suit's not going to fit anymore. Then when it gets to the maker, say in China, they'll sort of look at the numbers, and say oh, let's use, say this pattern, a block pattern. Then they finish it up, send it off, and that's it, without any fittings. And they'll probably never see that suit again, because who's going to send it back to China for alterations and deal with all the back and forth?

 

[F. Corbera]

How about online RTW versus online MTM?

 

[yywwyy]

RTW wins.

 

[LA Guy]



How about online RTW versus online MTM?

RTW wins.

For a broad cross section of the population, (myself included), I'd agree with this. RTW patterns from better makers are designed to accommodate a range of body types, and more importantly, you can return if things don't fit. If you are "average" sized, minor alterations usually make a suit or odd jacket quite wearable. MTM is much more hit or miss. For shirts, you can usually experiment a bit, in order to get things right. Suits and jackets are considerably more expensive to play with.

 

[unbelragazzo]

Agree on altered RTW vs. online MTM. At least on RTW, if you're buying from a quality designer, they have a pattern that balances the various elements of the jacket so that you won't get something ridiculous. Of course the front/back balance and things like that could still be off, but you can look for a RTW jacket that doesn't give you those problems. With online MTM, not those that do a scan but those that just take measurements, as far as I know usually they're not taking measurements that allow them to adjust for balance/posture (correct me if I'm wrong on this). And, as mentioned above, there's no opportunity to try the jacket on until it has been finished.

Let's break this up into two parts: i) using a stock pattern or cutting a new pattern ii) fittings before the jacket is finished. I know there is some bespoke that does i) but not ii), and I suppose there's some MTM that does ii), although I don't know of it. In any case, let's suppose for this discussion that "bespoke" involves BOTH i) and ii), and MTM involves neither, especially since we're mainly talking about online MTM.

For the sake of giving parameters to the discussion, let's toss aside all the crappy bespoke (I'm not denying its existence, to n00bs reading this thread, just because it's bespoke doesn't mean it will be awesome, but for the SF vets reading this thread, you have some idea of how to go about finding better quality bespoke) and talk only about the limits of the highest quality MTM vs. the best bespoke. I have had bespoke tailors tell me that after having made 3 or 4 suits for a customer, often they would feel comfortable just delivering a finished garment without fittings, as long as they have been making adjustments to the pattern as they have been going along. If this is true, then it would seem at least theoretically possible to cut this pattern after just taking some kind of measurements or recording of the customer's body and movements, so that ii) isn't theoretically necessarily.

I've heard some express an opposing view that ideally the pattern is not meant to give an exact blueprint for producing a well-fitting coat, but rather a general guideline, with plenty of allowances, so that at the fitting things can be adjusted and shaped correctly. In particular, the same pattern not work as well for different fabrics, and the customer may want a slightly different cut for different purposed garments. In this case ii) is crucial, even with the perfect MTM technology.

The use of a stock pattern vs. your own pattern seems an insurmountable obstacle, unless you have a somewhat unlikely exact overlap between what you want and one of the stock patterns. Also having your own pattern allows you to get the kind of silhouette that you want. Of course you should be going to a house tailor whose house style you appreciate already, so in that sense it is not fully customizable. But you'll be able to describe what you want, see examples of what you want, and see at the fittings how it is progressing and give direction for changes. For MTM, you just have to pray that your jacket comes out how you want it, although one hopes that you can see examples of what type of jacket they will be producing for you. For traditional retailers such as Brooks Brothers but up to Tom Ford that offer MTM as well, this is less of an obstacle as you would base your MTM order on one of their RTW models.

Has anyone gotten anything from Mahon's new MTM operation? Reading about it, it sounds like a step above most MTM, but I have no direct experience. What techniques does he use?

 

[RDiaz]

I firmly believe MTM should be done locally, not online. My tailor was able to tell I have a dropped shoulder, a high hip, an erect posture, forward thrust shoulders, and other details that I could easily overlook myself when ordering online. So the pattern will be altered taking such details into account from the start. I was able to try on different cuts too, so I could see what silhouette looked best on me. I'm still waiting for the results, but I'm hoping it will come out much better than RTW or online MTM attempts...

 

[unbelragazzo]

Also, I meant to say especially with online attempts - there's a big advantage there if you know what you're doing and can send it back and say, "I need it to be let out 1" at the waist" or whatever. If you don't know what you're doing this may lead to disaster. You need someone who knows tailoring to look at it and have you tell them "it feels tight" or "it looks too boxy" and know what to do about it.

 

[F. Corbera]

What would be known on StyFo as MTM for tailored clothes (or "custom" to most people) is a successful way of merging as many as possible of the disadvantages of ready-to-wear with the disadvantages of bespoke/bench-made clothes.

When you add "online" to "MTM," then another set of disadvantages gets successfully added.

So, from the standpoint of combining as many disadvantages as possible in the making of suits, jackets, and pants, online MTM is a great bet. Moreover, since most (all?) online MTM seems focused on saving you a buck...even thousands of bucks!..you're pretty much guaranteed a surprising level of attentive, expert, efficient, and effective service.

 

[Bounder]



RTW wins.

RTW wins because as soon as you get it you will take it to a local tailor who knows what he is doing and will make it actually fit you.

 

[F. Corbera]



RTW wins because as soon as you get it you will take it to a local tailor who knows what he is doing and will make it actually fit you.

This is how a lot of MTM works anyway.

 

[RDiaz]

RTW wins because as soon as you get it you will take it to a local tailor who knows what he is doing and will make it actually fit you.

You can't adjust balance on a RTW garment, which is very important. You can on a MTM garment, as long as your tailor knows what he's doing of course. Anyways I'm expecting my first MTM suit to be finished this week, and F. Corbera has managed to scare me... I've seen great MTM come out of this tailor for other guys, but still...

What do you mean by disadvantages?

 

[zalb916]

I recently got a MTM Caruso jacket. The one part of the process that resembled bespoke was making the sleeves the correct length and adding buttonholes. The retailer asked me to come in several times to get this right. Seemed overkill, but I appreciated the attention to detail. On the first visit, the tailor marked the length for the sleeves. On the second visit, the tailor had basted the sleeves at the appropriate length. When I picked up the jacket on my third visit, one sleeve was about an inch too long and the other sleeve was about 1.5 inches too long. Buttonholes already cut. Pathetic.

The MTM part of the coat was great. Everything fit well, and I was pleased. The only part where a tailor actually made any adjustments while seeing the coat on me was a ******* disaster.

What's the point of all of this? It entirely depends on what MTM operation and what bespoke operation. Good bespoke should be considerably better than good MTM, but bad bespoke can really be bad. That and I'm going back to using my regular tailor.