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Despos

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removed to edit for a revised post
 
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Diagramed how changing the front shoulder point changes the fit. Thought pictures can explain better than words.
The numbers clearly show the effect of the changes.
Thread marks are the outline of the original pattern. Chalk marks are the changes.
Not going into the changes to the strap length or balance to avoid complicating things
This is the pattern as is, no manipulation. 6" front shoulder stays the same on each manipulation. Watch the back and chest measures. Normal chest measure is 7"
9.5' is half the point to point width.


View attachment 1396423
This is after moving the neck point back .5" this is the Crook adjustment. The chest is reduced from 7 to 6 5/8" and the back width changed from 9.5" to 9.25". Thus is what the explanation said to do for a full chest/erect posture. The chest becomes smaller and the reduced back is pulling the jacket to the back. These are the two points that you are trying to correct but it moves the jacket in the wrong direction. Smaller chest and less back width.
View attachment 1396434
This is changing the neck point forward .5" or straightening the shoulder. The chest width increases from 7' to 7.25" and the back width changes to 9.75". The increase on the back is allowing the jacket to move forward. The increase on the chest and moving the lapel break line over, covers the chest more.
View attachment 1396435
I don't understand why changing the front neck point makes the back bigger or smaller but now that I'm aware of it I use it. This is the same adjustment that works for forward shoulders. It moves the shoulder forward.
This is also the correction for bumpy divots on the shoulder line. It releases the tension on the shoulder and increases the back width. Common term for these adjustments is to shift the shoulder.
JefferyD has posted pictures of divots on the sleeve head and how letting out the back makes the divots go away. This is very similar in theory.
Yes I agree with all of that. and I understand it thoroughly. Even why moving the neck point forward makes the back smaller. I understand that . I %100 understand and I do it often. But the tailor was explaining that it was to be done for an erect figure. And the opposite for a stooping figure.
Diagramed how changing the front shoulder point changes the fit. Thought pictures can explain better than words.
The numbers clearly show the effect of the changes.
Thread marks are the outline of the original pattern. Chalk marks are the changes.
Not going into the changes to the strap length or balance to avoid complicating things
This is the pattern as is, no manipulation. 6" front shoulder stays the same on each manipulation. Watch the back and chest measures. Normal chest measure is 7"
9.5' is half the point to point width.


View attachment 1396423
This is after moving the neck point back .5" this is the Crook adjustment. The chest is reduced from 7 to 6 5/8" and the back width changed from 9.5" to 9.25". Thus is what the explanation said to do for a full chest/erect posture. The chest becomes smaller and the reduced back is pulling the jacket to the back. These are the two points that you are trying to correct but it moves the jacket in the wrong direction. Smaller chest and less back width.
View attachment 1396434
This is changing the neck point forward .5" or straightening the shoulder. The chest width increases from 7' to 7.25" and the back width changes to 9.75". The increase on the back is allowing the jacket to move forward. The increase on the chest and moving the lapel break line over, covers the chest more.
View attachment 1396435
I don't understand why changing the front neck point makes the back bigger or smaller but now that I'm aware of it I use it. This is the same adjustment that works for forward shoulders. It moves the shoulder forward.
This is also the correction for bumpy divots on the shoulder line. It releases the tension on the shoulder and increases the back width. Common term for these adjustments is to shift the shoulder.
JefferyD has posted pictures of divots on the sleeve head and how letting out the back makes the divots go away. This is very similar in theory.
 

Despos

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Yes I agree with all of that. and I understand it thoroughly. Even why moving the neck point forward makes the back smaller. I understand that . I %100 understand and I do it often. But the tailor was explaining that it was to be done for an erect figure. And the opposite for a stooping figure.
That’s the point. Have to straighten the shoulder and not crook the shoulder. Crooking makes it worse. At least this is what I do.
Every tailor I know has his own way of doing things.
I have done the adjustment the same way Steed does and didn't Like the result. Looked for another way.
 
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Despos

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Revising post from yesterday, using fewer words and pictures. The post seemed a bit clunky. This post is only meant to describe what the terms do when applied to cutting a jacket.
Thread mark is normal pattern showing the armhole, front shoulder, neck point and the lapel break line.

Moving the neck point back, towards the armhole is called "crooking". This is the red lines in the picture. It also moves the break line back and reduces the chest width. It moves the collar closer to the neck.

Moving the neck point towards the lapel is called "straightening" This is the white chalk line in the picture.
It moves the break line out and increases chest width.

This is how pattern grading increases a jacket to a larger size.

Straightening and crooking have only ever been defining terms to communicate with a coat maker which way to move the neck point. Nothing more, in my experience.
Application of this has been a controversy with tailors I know every time it's been discussed. So today when I was thinking this thru it occurred to me that tailors are using different patterns to cut from and working with unique physiques. Patterns with differing proportions and balance. So the application of crooking or straightening is based on what the pattern requires to accommodate a better fit for the client. New insight, new paradigm.
neck point.jpg
 

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Tom Mahon also has a video about it here. This is a follow-up to the old post he did on English Cut, which some may remember had that Clinton photo.

I believe Edwin disagrees about whether you can let out or trim away the front edge. As he's explained it to me, crookening and straightening is about moving the neck point. But Tom does a good job of showing that balance issue on the mannequin. I believe this is what Edwin means when he says a customer with an erect figure can throw a coat off of him, or a customer with a stooped figure can have a coat wrapping around his chest.

I believe there was some miscommunication earlier about whether this has anything to do with the A&S coats. I don't have an opinion on that. I was only commenting on what Edwin has told me regarding these two terms.


 

Toninno

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That’s the point. Have to straighten the shoulder and not crook the shoulder. Crooking makes it worse. At least this is what I do.
Tim Wendelboe is a coffee roaster in Oslo. Love his quote about making coffee. “You can do a lot of things wrong and still make good coffee”
Every tailor I know has his own way of doing things
I think Edwin was on
Tom Mahon also has a video about it here. This is a follow-up to the old post he did on English Cut, which some may remember had that Clinton photo.

I believe Edwin disagrees about whether you can let out or trim away the front edge. As he's explained it to me, crookening and straightening is about moving the neck point. But Tom does a good job of showing that balance issue on the mannequin. I believe this is what Edwin means when he says a customer with an erect figure can throw a coat off of him, or a customer with a stooped figure can have a coat wrapping around his chest.

I believe there was some miscommunication earlier about whether this has anything to do with the A&S coats. I don't have an opinion on that. I was only commenting on what Edwin has told me regarding these two terms.



Tom Mahon also has a video about it here. This is a follow-up to the old post he did on English Cut, which some may remember had that Clinton photo.

I believe Edwin disagrees about whether you can let out or trim away the front edge. As he's explained it to me, crookening and straightening is about moving the neck point. But Tom does a good job of showing that balance issue on the mannequin. I believe this is what Edwin means when he says a customer with an erect figure can throw a coat off of him, or a customer with a stooped figure can have a coat wrapping around his chest.

I believe there was some miscommunication earlier about whether this has anything to do with the A&S coats. I don't have an opinion on that. I was only commenting on what Edwin has told me regarding these two terms.



[/QUOT.
wow. The emperor’s new clothes are cut crooked
 

dieworkwear

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Straightening and crooking have only ever been defining terms to communicate with a coat maker which way to move the neck point. Nothing more, in my experience.

Isn't this the same as what Edwin says in his video? Or are you saying this doesn't address the issue he says it does?
 

Despos

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Tom Mahon also has a video about it here. This is a follow-up to the old post he did on English Cut, which some may remember had that Clinton photo.

I believe Edwin disagrees about whether you can let out or trim away the front edge. As he's explained it to me, crookening and straightening is about moving the neck point. But Tom does a good job of showing that balance issue on the mannequin. I believe this is what Edwin means when he says a customer with an erect figure can throw a coat off of him, or a customer with a stooped figure can have a coat wrapping around his chest.

I believe there was some miscommunication earlier about whether this has anything to do with the A&S coats. I don't have an opinion on that. I was only commenting on what Edwin has told me regarding these two terms.



Well, now you see how focus changes with different tailors.
Tom focused on the effect on the front lap. Edwin used the adjustment to change the chest area. Neck point is the most crucial point on a jacket because it changes the relation of every part of a jacket. It increases/decreases chest width, increases or decreases front lap, changes armhole position, shoulder slope, balance and how the back joins to the front which changes the over shoulder alignment. It's something you have to respect. I just don't use it or apply it the same way these two cutters do.
The imaginary line Tom referred to is the essential point. You want that line perpendicular to the ground. If it is perpendicular, don't mess with it.
 
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Despos

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Isn't this the same as what Edwin says in his video? Or are you saying this doesn't address the issue he says it does?
My take is they use it as a definition of a cutting style. To cut a jacket crooked or straight. To achieve a certain line. That is unique to them. The jacket has to be centered and balanced, period.
Moving the neck point is a corrective measure not a methodology of cutting.
If the shoulder point is too straight the fronts scissor.
If the shoulder point is too crooked you get the line of the A&S jackets on Whnay and Manton.
Either way you see that it looks off.
If your pattern is balanced correctly (read; the neck point in the right place) the front is plum.

If you follow what Tom said, if you move the neck point either way then you have to adjust the chest width, the front lap, shoulder slope, change to the strap length, etc.. It changes everything.
 
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dieworkwear

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My take is they use it as a definition of a cutting style. To cut a jacket crooked or straight. To achieve a certain line. That is unique to them. The jacket has to be centered and balanced, period.
If the shoulder point is too straight the fronts scissor.
If the shoulder point is too crooked you get the line of the A&S jackets on Whnay and Manton.
Either way you see that it looks off.
If your pattern is balanced correctly (read; the neck point in the right place) the front is plum.

That makes sense.
 

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That makes sense.
Chris, this is razzmatazz talk to dazzle his customers. I liked steeds work a few years back but what he’s saying is total BS. “Don’t piss down my leg and tell me it’s raining”. I know this stuff backwards and forwards and this guy is full of if it. I’ll not back off on that. I’ve never heard more nonsense. If you want more front add to the front. If you want less front take it off the front. Balance is balance. Plumb is plumb. You don’t shift the shoulder to do this. What this guy says is %100 nonsense. And the guy in the other video saying to shift the neck point to accommodate a stoop or erect figure. No no no. The neck point may end up in a different place to accommodate a stoop or erect figure by splicing the pattern but you do not do it directly as he says. I’ll knock both of these fine gents down on every point. Steed used to be great before they started traveling the globe chasing fame and fortune. Trunk shows and MTM. Who’s minding the shop ?
 
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Toninno

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Chris, this is razzmatazz talk to dazzle his customers. I liked steeds work a few years back but what he’s saying is total BS. “Don’t piss down my leg and tell me it’s raining”. I know this stuff backwards and forwards and this guy is full of if it. I’ll not back off on that. I’ve never heard more nonsense. If you want more front add to the front. If you want less front take it off the front. Balance is balance. Plumb is plumb. You don’t shift the shoulder to do this. What this guy says is %100 nonsense. And the guy in the other video saying to shift the neck point to accommodate a stoop or erect figure. No no no. The neck point may end up in a different place to accommodate a stoop or erect figure by splicing the pattern but you do not do it directly as he says. I’ll knock both of these fine gents down on every point. Steed used to be great before they started traveling the globe chasing fame and fortune. Trunk shows and MTM. Who’s minding the shop ?
Bullshit is a bi-product of mediocrity.
 

dieworkwear

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Chris, this is razzmatazz talk to dazzle his customers. I liked steeds work a few years back but what he’s saying is total BS. “Don’t piss down my leg and tell me it’s raining”. I know this stuff backwards and forwards and this guy is full of if it. I’ll not back off on that. I’ve never heard more nonsense. If you want more front add to the front. If you want less front take it off the front. Balance is balance. Plumb is plumb. You don’t shift the shoulder to do this. What this guy says is %100 nonsense. And the guy in the other video saying to shift the neck point to accommodate a stoop or erect figure. No no no. The neck point may end up in a different place to accommodate a stoop or erect figure by splicing the pattern but you do not do it directly as he says. I’ll knock both of these fine gents down on every point. Steed used to be great before they started traveling the globe chasing fame and fortune. Trunk shows and MTM. Who’s minding the shop ?

Bullshit is a bi-product if mediocrity.

Lol, I think I'll judge this with my own two eyes.
 

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