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dieworkwear

Mahatma Jawndi
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The interior bellows pocket sounds really interesting.

@Despos, is this simply a matter of creating a jetted opening, then doing a bellows pocket on the inside, but with the pocket covering the jetted opening?

I assume the machine stitching connecting the pocket to the exterior cloth then creates the line of stitching seen on Douglas and Mark's jackets?
 

Despos

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Oxxford Exterior pocket would be besom or besom + flap. The interior pocket bag is made from lining and made in a bellows style. The pocket is stitched to the cloth on the inside by hand with no visible stitching on the exterior side. It amazed me how fine and small the stitches were to secure the pocket and not show on the outside. Takes a good, highly trained/skilled sewing hand with a delicate touch. This was pretty common for Oxxford, most of their jackets were partially lined. You had to request full lining.
Don’t know if they still do this but should be easy to find on older vintage Oxxford jackets.
 

Despos

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The interior bellows pocket sounds really interesting.

@Despos, is this simply a matter of creating a jetted opening, then doing a bellows pocket on the inside, but with the pocket covering the jetted opening?

I assume the machine stitching connecting the pocket to the exterior cloth then creates the line of stitching seen on Douglas and Mark's jackets?
Remember seeing jackets with the exterior stitching showing the outline of a patch pocket like you mention when I first started following SF. Think some Italian tailors were doing it, maybe Rubinaci.
 

Mr. Six

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Curious what people think of these jetted reverse patch pockets. I'm thinking about getting a walnut-colored Fox Air suit, copying Douglas' suit here.

You can see the faint outline around the pocket bag. My understanding is that this is basically a reversed patch pocket, where the tailor sews a patch pocket on the reverse side of the garment. The patched pocket covers the jetted opening.




Mark shows it at the 3-minute marker of this video. It's a bit hard to see because this is a cream linen suit jacket. But you can faintly make out the outline.




I was thinking of using this Fox Air suit jacket as a sport coat, and figured maybe this would be something in-between. A jetted style for the suit, but also a faint outline of the pocket for the sport coat.

That said, it does somewhat look to me like a coat that's been harshly pressed, such that the shape of the pocket bags have been pressed into the garment. Not totally sure how I feel about it, so I thought I'd field some opinions.
Seems gimmicky and unlikely to look good in person.
 

Despos

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Took a closer look at that pocket. Doesn’t make sense. The besom extends forward of the dart .5” or so but the front edge on the patch pocket stops at the dart. They don’t line up and would look more cohesive if they did. Would put a flap over the besom and conceal the besom pocket but because the opening of the patch pocket is smaller than the length of the besom the flap would have be wider than the patch pocket opening and that would look weird. This one needed a bit more thinking through
 
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dieworkwear

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Took a closer look at that pocket. Doesn’t make sense. The besom extends forward of the dart .5” or so but the front edge on the patch pocket stops at the dart. They don’t line up and would look more cohesive if they did. Would put a flap over the besom and conceal the besom pocket but because the opening of the patch pocket is smaller than the length of the besom the flap would have be wider than the patch pocket opening and that would look weird. This one needed a bit more thinking through
Would this be the case any time you have an extended front dart?

It seems like it could look strange if you moved the opening back. And then there's the issue of how do you deal with the outline of the pocket bag and make it look coherent with the extended front dart. Seems like you could make the two lines of stitching the same or have them slightly offset. But, in either case, it might look odd.
 

Despos

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Would this be the case any time you have an extended front dart?

It seems like it could look strange if you moved the opening back. And then there's the issue of how do you deal with the outline of the pocket bag and make it look coherent with the extended front dart. Seems like you could make the two lines of stitching the same or have them slightly offset. But, in either case, it might look odd.
Non capisco
Can you ask again and use different words?
Small words, no more than two syllables.
 

dieworkwear

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Non capisco
Can you ask again and use different words?
Small words, no more than two syllables.
Sorry, my post is a bit unclear.

Here's Douglas in his suit, along with a close up of the pocket.

69275782_504039910365835_5230510787787405705_n (4).jpg

Screen Shot 2020-06-27 at 5.23.38 PM.png



From your earlier post, it sounds like you take issue with how the jetted opening extends past the front dart. But whether a tailor does this reversed patch or not, wouldn't this be true of any jacket with a front dart, extended or not? Here's a photo of Marino, for example.

tumblr_mgtl9ySYlx1rf1jvro1_1280.jpg

Screen Shot 2020-06-27 at 5.31.02 PM.png




Examples of non-Neapolitan jackets that have a front dart, but not an extended front dart:


Screen Shot 2020-06-27 at 5.47.36 PM.png


My question was: to get the jetted pocket to not extend past the front dart, it sounds like you would have to shift the front dart forward or the jetted opening back. But that would also look strange on a jacket, no?


Screen Shot 2020-06-27 at 5.31.02 PM.png



Then there's the second part of my question. When someone does a reversed patch pocket with a jetted opening on a jacket with an extended front dart, it seems like you have an issue with how you align these two lines. The first line is the extended front dart. The second line is the stitching around the pocket.

It's a bit hard to see how this was done on the Ciro coat. But just from my imagination, it seems like you'd either align these two lines so they're one, or they're slighlty offset from each other.

Screen Shot 2020-06-27 at 5.23.38 PM.png


When you have an extended front dart, there doesn't seem to be a clear and easy solution.

As an aside, Marino seems to wear this "reversed patch with a jetted opening" style on some suits.

5c6faa6e078446c1f8d0f1aa11b58436.jpg

Screen Shot 2020-06-27 at 5.28.03 PM.png



I think you can see the extended front dart a bit more clearly on the left, and then stitching from the reversed patch pocket on the bottom with the two circles.

Screen Shot 2020-06-27 at 5.28.03 PM.png



Same suit:



Screen Shot 2020-06-27 at 6.29.18 PM.png

IMG_00611.jpg

Screen Shot 2020-06-27 at 5.56.29 PM.png
 
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Despos

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Besom pockets 99.9% of the time extend forward of the front dart. It would cause unnecessary thickness to end on the seam.
When the front dart extends to the hem, the patch pocket usually extends forward of the dart as well. That's why it looks off to see the patch pocket ending at the dart on the brown jacket, especially when the besom pocket extends forward, which is normal. Doesn't it makes sense that the besom and the front edge of the patch pocket be aligned?
 

dieworkwear

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Besom pockets 99.9% of the time extend forward of the front dart. It would cause unnecessary thickness to end on the seam.
When the front dart extends to the hem, the patch pocket usually extends forward of the dart as well. That's why it looks off to see the patch pocket ending at the dart on the brown jacket, especially when the besom pocket extends forward, which is normal. Doesn't it makes sense that the besom and the front edge of the patch pocket be aligned?
I think I understand what you're saying. So the opening almost always extends past the front dart. What you're saying is: given this fact, it's strange for the stitching around the pocket to terminate at the front dart.

So blue line here is the extended front dart. Red line is where the pocket stitching should be if it followed the opening.


Screen Shot 2020-06-27 at 5.23.38 PM.png


I think this is the same as what I was asking above. It seems like when you're creating this on a jacket with a front dart, you have two choices:

1. Make the vertical line of the pocket bag the same as the extended front dart, or

2. Have two lines, such that you have an extended front dart and the pocket stitching.

(I believe we're saying the same thing).

If you have jetted opening that extends past the front dart, neither of those seem like perfect solutions.

I suppose this gets into what some other posters were saying earlier: this is perhaps easier to do if you don't have a front dart at all, such as on a Liverano jacket. If you have a front dart -- and especially an extended front dart -- then you have to deal with how to places these various lines.
 

Despos

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Are you saying that is stitching to create the appearance of a patch pocket and not an actual, conventional patch pocket?Front dart is irrelevant as to pocket placement, patch or besom. You place the pocket forward of the seam.
I’m saying it’s odd the pocket openings of the besom and patch are offset. Seems illogical
 

dieworkwear

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Are you saying that is stitching to create the appearance of a patch pocket and not an actual, conventional patch pocket?
Not sure what you mean. Is this pocket style not basically a jetted opening with a patched pocket construction on the interior, with the patch covering the opening?
 

Despos

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Not sure what you mean. Is this pocket style not basically a jetted opening with a patched pocket construction on the interior, with the patch covering the opening?
I assumed this was a conventional patch pocket sewn on the exterior, not the inside, and positioned under a besom pocket.
 

dieworkwear

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I assumed this was a conventional patch pocket sewn on the exterior, not the inside, and positioned under a besom pocket.
I don't believe it is. I think it's a jetted opening, and then a patched pocket on the interior. Here's a close up of Mariano's jacket:

Screen Shot 2020-06-27 at 5.56.29 PM.png


At the three minute mark of this video, Mark at The Armoury shows a close up of this on a Liverano jacket. The video isn't ideal because this is such a light-colored linen. But you can see it's just a line of stitching.


 

Despos

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Well, I don’t know. This is something I haven’t seen.
The brown jacket doesn’t look the same as Mariano’s to my eye but maybe it is. I really can’t be sure from the pictures
 

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