Discussion in 'Entertainment, Culture, and Sports' started by Jr Mouse, Oct 30, 2012.
No, that's just ridiculous.
It's completely and 100% a trooffact.
Another thing I noticed about the space battle in Return of the Jedi is the weird editing. One guy seems to be shot down several times, and the cross-shaped rebel fighters (which are displayed very prominently in the lead up) completely disappear once the fighting starts.
If you haven't seen it in a while, go back and watch it again. It's bad. Worse than you remember. Exhibit A:
Chewie's Tarzan yell was really bad. I will give you that. Still a good film and solid addition to the OT.
Another thing re-watching the original movies has reminded me is how stupid the (apparent) setup for the new movies is.
In Star Wars, Vader is a medium-level commander at best. He might be in charge of the ships that get Leia, but once he meets up with the other imperials he's clearly subordinate to Tarkin and a peer to a dozen other commanders, some of which are openly contemptuous toward him.
In Empire Strikes Back, Vader's apparently been put in charge, and, again, his immediate subordinates treat him with contempt. After he murders a couple of them, they stop questioning him because they're afraid. But clearly they don't like him and are seen making comments behind his back. Then in Return of the Jedi, Vader again just intimidates people. No one seems to like him, and no one lifts a finger to help after he's hurt. They just give him a wide berth. And of course the end result of Vader's leadership is a calamity.
Nothing in the original movies gives the slightest hint that anyone who was left would be receptive to another Vader.
I don't think you're correct in trying to place Vader within the bureaucracy.
He is the emperor's right hand and does not need to be involved in the running of the galaxy. He is only involved because of the emporer's personal interest in the matter. A high ranking member of the military would never hop into a one man star fighter and race out to dogfight with the rebels.
Whether or not he technically outranks Tarkin is unknown... I'm sure like any royal figure, be knows to yield to the commander of the ship be is aboard. If he wanted to finish force choking the guy on the death star, I'm sure Tarkin couldn't have actually stopped him or punished him. But that guy was clearly an important commander of something... It would have been a major hassle replacing someone like that in the middle of getting the death star project operational. Tarkin was within his role as commander of the vessel to ask Vader to stop, and Vader was being responsible in his role as a powerful interloper to let go of his pretty grievance. It's not like Vader was a purely evil and unmerciful character who simply had to murder everyone who so much as disrespected him.
I might have been wrong to the extent I suggested that Vader was part of the ordinary military hierarchy. He's probably some kind of outsider. But if he held some real authority there's no way the commanders would have talked to him like they do in the movie.
And Vader most definitely is subordinate to Tarkin. When he meets with the other imperial commanders at the round table, Tarkin takes the big chair and Vader one of the smaller ones. When Leia meets Tarkin she says she should have expected him to be "holding Vader's leash." And of course he orders Vader around, as you acknowledged.
Then in Empire Strikes Back, at the beginning, Vader seems to be in charge, but the admiral talks to him with contempt, and when Vader orders the attack, the general says he'll do it, but pauses afterwards and looks to the admiral for permission.
And all this is just tangential the point that Vader's obviously not liked or loved by the military. They always think they know better than he does and hold his methods and beliefs in contempt. So why would they willingly submit themselves to another Vader-like character?
Force chokes and light sabers, as usual
Vader was to the Emperor as Robbie McNamara was to JFK.
While I disagree with Ataturk's readings of these scenes it's largely irrelevant since his premise is weak. We only get to see a glimpse of a handful of the higher ups interact with Vader. Ones who worked directly with or closely with him. Vader used fear, intimidation and violence to be an effective leader with them. Yet the Empire would have had to be massive. The vast majority of those within it would have likely admired him for ensuring the Empire's rule and never had been close enough to him to feel the same fears of those who were.
It's not hard to believe a splinter of the Empire who idolized Vader could have gone off to form this First Order.
Yeah, I bet Vader was just beloved after...
failing to save the Death Star, yet surviving the battle when no one else did;
botching the attack on Hoth;
pursuing a personal vendetta instead of the fleeing rebels;
arbitrarily murdering high-ranking and respected officers;
promoting sycophants in their place; and
being AWOL at the Endor battle.
Truly the stuff legends are made of.
My favorite scene from Episode 1:
Qui Gon fights with Darth Maul for the first time. He jumps onto the gigantic space ship and says he was attacked by something that was well-trained in the Jedi arts. The dumb kid, of all people, says what are we going to do about it? And Qui Gon says "We should be patient" instead of "Turn the ship around and obliterate him with lasers."
This is just grasping at straws Ataturk. What part of the film made you think that ROYAL ship of all ships in the movie would be armed? It was obviously a civilian ship.
Like the consular ship from the beginning of Star Wars?
The only unarmed ship in the entire history of star wars. Gotcha.
Second best scene in the prequels:
"I killed them. I killed them all. They're dead, every single one of them. And not just the men, but the women and the children too. They're like animals, and I slaughtered them like animals."
"Oh my God--that's so hot! Was there sand? Tell me about the sand!"
Separate names with a comma.