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OFFICIAL Game of Thrones Thread

Discussion in 'Entertainment, Culture, and Sports' started by Piobaire, Dec 5, 2010.

  1. munchausen

    munchausen Senior member

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    Cersei is alive as of the last published novel. She goes through some shit and things are looking bad for her for a minute but it's left a bit ambiguous how things are going to turn out.

    The popular theory is that Arya kills her.
     
  2. Neo_Version 7

    Neo_Version 7 Senior member

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  3. Gibonius

    Gibonius Senior member

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    I think there's a sweet spot there. I've re-read the whole series a number of times, and there's a definite structural change in the Book 4/5 combo. I really think he was just trying to write himself out of some corners. There's a pretty stark difference in how fast some of those plotlines move, which I think is part of his problem. Some of the newer characters/plotlines are moving hellaciously fast, and some of the older ones are grinding.

    I'm picking on the Meereen plotline because, relative to the number of chapters he devotes on it, we don't know much about Dany that we didn't before and she didn't evolve all that much as a character. She was my favorite character in the earlier books and much less so now.
     
  4. in stitches

    in stitches Senior member Moderator

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    that would be immensely satisfying.


    win
     
    1 person likes this.
  5. scurvyfreedman

    scurvyfreedman Senior member

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    I could not stand the Damphair, Asha's chapters became grating, and while at the Iron Islands I didn't even like Victarion. I even liked the Dornish chapters better than the Iron Islands chapters, and I wasn't crazy about those. I did like Brienne, especially on the Quiet Island and when she met Randyll Tarly. And, to whoever was criticizing the Arya plot line and chapters - I couldn't disagree more. Her chapters are few and far between and they are all awesome. Plus, the Samwell chapters reveal a ton of info connecting history and major future plot points.
     
  6. Michigan Planner

    Michigan Planner Senior member

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    This sums up my feelings 100%. Hopefully in the next book we get less Iron Islands and more Arya.
     
  7. aravenel

    aravenel Senior member

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    Agreed.
     
  8. munchausen

    munchausen Senior member

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    I'm a fan and I love things that are epic, but the novels suffer from trying to include too many characters. Some of these should have been extras and he tries to make them into support characters. And really outside of the real top tier characters (Tyrion, Arya, Dany, Bran, Tywin, Joffrey) everyone seems to fall into a category that is duplicated over and over: earnest teenage warrior (Jon, Robb, Loras, Brienne) regretful old men looking for a chance at redemption (Jorah, Davos, Selmy,
    Jon Connington
    , middle aged men driven to doom (or close to it) by their honor (Ned, Stannis, looks like Jaime is headed that way), amoral schemers (Cersei, Littlefinger, Varys, The Queen of Hearts).
     
  9. Piobaire

    Piobaire Senior member

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    Just IMO, and I've not really thought through this too hard, but I came to the conclusion part of GRRM's problem is killing off too many main characters. You put all those pages and chapters into character development and then you snuff them. That means, in order to keep the reader engaged and to print more books, you have to go through this process with far more characters than the usual author does. Let's face it, in order to develop a character, quite a few pages of backstory, development, etc. (all stuff that usually is not the "exciting" part of a story) have to be included to get the job done. So the reader is forced to go through this innumerable times with GRRM vs. the more limited times for a traditional series.

    Just a thought.
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. munchausen

    munchausen Senior member

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    AffC is an interesting book in a lot of ways. It's basically an anti-war novel for one. And it also serves notice, several times over, that not all of its storytellers are telling the truth. Not even the POV characters. It's ambitious and reads better on the second read, but it's always going to be my least favorite of the first 5 books
     
  11. Michigan Planner

    Michigan Planner Senior member

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    That's an interesting take. I'm planning on listening to the audio versions another time through this summer. It will be interesting to see what I take away from the story the second time through.


    Regarding GRRM not finishing the story before he dies - I figure he will never finish, regardless of how long he lives. Even after he finishes what is supposed to be the "final" book, I see him as the type of write who will just say, "Nope. I've got four more books worth of material in my head. I must keep writing!"
     
  12. SixOhNine

    SixOhNine Senior member

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    This is why I expect it to make it into the show, but let's face it- that's going to be boring. And I'm not even sure they'll be able to do sexposition to keep eyes from glazing over.
     
  13. otc

    otc Senior member

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    I WANT SAMWELL SEX SCENES NOW!
     
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  14. otc

    otc Senior member

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    For reference, they will probably look like this but flabbier
    (and on a boat)
    :
    [VIDEO][/VIDEO]
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2014
  15. Ataturk

    Ataturk Senior member

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    Would you elaborate on that? 'Cause it's not something I remember well from the book.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2014
  16. lawyerdad

    lawyerdad Senior member

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    All fair points. "Stark difference . . ." :)

    I'm not so sure. I get the impression that while he loves the money and attention the show has brought him, he has come to hate the series, and a significant part of him would love to just walk away from it.

    +1
    I take it you mean not just that they lie within the context of the narrative, but that we are to understand that the narrative itself is untrustworthy? I don't remember examples of that either, but it's been years since I read the books.
     
  17. otc

    otc Senior member

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    I think there is an example where in more than one instance, Sansa recalls the hound kissing her right before he flees kings landing (right after he demands a song from her and then leaves his cloak behind) during the battle of the blackwater.

    But we have actual live narration (vs recollection of the past) of that event, and he didn't kiss her. She is essentially fantasizing about the the hound to the extent that she is believing her own lies. He was the only person there who showed her kindness: she notes the gentleness of his touch, he protects her from Joffrey. When he showed up drunk, she wanted him.

    In later books, she is misremembering this event in the way that she wanted it to turn out--She wants life to be like the stories and the songs where the hero takes a song and a kiss from the maiden before departing. Not the real life where a drunken man stumbles into her room and demands a song at knifepoint before casting aside his cloak of office and fleeing.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2014
  18. Ataturk

    Ataturk Senior member

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    I accept that many of the characters believe things that aren't true (e.g., the thousands of years of history they seem to know with certainty) and occasionally might observe or recall things inaccurately, but it's not really a first-person POV so I don't see how they could be unreliable narrators in the traditional sense.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2014
  19. otc

    otc Senior member

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    Well, with the Sansa thing--there is a theory that the houd's kiss misremember (which GRRM has responded to with something like "not every inconsistency is a mistake...some are quite intentional...file this under "unreliable narrator") is an indication that she has blocked some serious shit from her memory.

    Apparently there are rumors of a controversial Sansa chapter in the new book, and a lot of people think that this is going to be her remembering something serious that happened in Kings Landing that she has been repressing (and thus it never shows up in her naive narration).

    Maybe she actually was raped during the Kings Landing riot. In the book, I believe Tyrion loses track of her until the hound brings her back and simply says that he saved her...maybe he saved her life but not her maidenhood (although in the show, we see him save her before she can be raped).
    I'm trying to think of something important that she might have blocked out...her being raped would have been bad when she was a maiden betrothed to Joffrey, but isn't such a big deal once she has been wed to Tyrion.
    Likewise, any abuses by Joffrey are moot since he is dead. Maybe Joffrey fucked with Tommen and her memories will be important to breaking the kid out of his shell?

    Maybe something happened with littlefinger that will cause her to flee the Eyrie...

    Whatever it is though, it has to be traumatic or it wouldn't be suppressed. And it is probably sexual in nature if it is peeking its head out as remembering being kissed.

    edit: and there is a quote from GRRM explicitly saying that she is simply remembering it wrong and that this is meant to "set the stage for a much more important lapse in memory". If the key is just her memories shifting over time, and not that she is repressing something tramatic, it could have different implications:
    Most notably, that she essentially becomes the girl she is pretending to be. Her chapters are already re-titled Alayne...
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2014
  20. otc

    otc Senior member

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    Tyrion is an unreliable narrator.

    How can you tell? His point of view is always hilarious...but you never see anyone else laughing. :rimshot:

    Also, Shae and Bronn. From his telling, they are upstanding and reliable friends/lovers. But that is clearly not the case. We will see this shortly when Bronn's failure to act is what allows the Red Viper to fight for Tyrion.

    And again with what leads him to kill Shae.

    Saw this little bit on reddit after this thread made me go searching for unreliable narrator stories:
    "I'm pretty sure Jon killed Ygritte. It would make sense since Dany killed Drogo and Tyrion killed Shae. Azor Ahai had to kill his lover which would make them the three heads of the dragon."

    Although the following comments make the case that Jon doesn't have to have actually loosed the arrow that killed her for the prophecy to be true. His actions and betrayal led to her death. (and, as an unreliable narrator point, he comes to the conclusion that it wasn't his arrow that killed her *awfully fast*...especially considering how many times he probably had to go get more arrows from the communal supply)
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2014

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