Not the Usual Topic: Lawyers + Graduate Degrees

[CJG_NYC]

I know this is not a normal topic for SF, but, everyone on here seems very educated and intelligent. In addition, I've noticed quite a few Attorneys.

My story is long, and well to be honest, boring. But, here is the short version:

I'm a newly admitted Attorney (in New York), and I'm very interested in Communications Law, but mainly all things technology related (internet, privacy, e-commerce, etc). I received my undergrad degree in Telecommunications, graduated top of my law school class (receiving two of the school's highest honors at graduation), and I spent two summers working with the Federal Communications Commission. My hopes were to join the FCC in their "Attorney Honors Program" but unfortunately, after interviewing me, they cancelled the program due to budget constraints. So, I've been working at a small firm where I worked throughout college and law school, doing primarily Civil Litigation.

I'm exceptionally tired of this area of law,

and just very tired of doing work I'm not passionate about. I've decided that I can not continue to do this to myself and if the right job does not make itself available comes fall, I want to have some other options available to get me away from this rut I'm currently feeling like I'm in. Just to be clear, I've been applying to jobs like crazy, but theres no doubt that the economy is not being helpful. That all said, I'm thinking of applying to either some masters programs or LLM programs.

Heres where you all come in: any suggestions on what programs might work well with my interests? What may work well with a law degree and license? In the alternative, if you know of any jobs, well I'd love to hear that information as well

And, because I'm sure it'll come up: I did not go to a top law school, but, I worked hard despite that fact to make sure I came out of my school on top. I've also worked in the legal industry for around 9 years. (Plus, I know quite a few people from "better ranked" schools who are in the same boat as me, and others who had jobs but are now laid off).

I really believe this forum has some educated folks, so I'd be really interested to hear some ideas. Or, in the alternative, even maybe a few links pointing me to some more informative forums/sites on this topic.

Thanks everyone. (Yes, this was the short version of my story, I promise!)

 

[intent]

You sound extremely naive for someone who's been in the legal industry for 9 years, even if you are a new attorney. While I'm just a 2L, I've read enough from other sources to piece together my own opinion.

The only LLM worth doing is tax, and that's if you go to a top school. Otherwise, in your field, I'd suggest you stick with the job you have, and try to lateral/move to a more suitable job when the opportunity arises. As you've noted, many others are being laid off at the moment. I'm very concerned that you've somehow managed three years of law schools and still wonder how legal jobs are found.

Personally, I suspect you're just at a point where you feel like you've made a bad choice, or that you're jaded about your profession. I'm sure everyone reaches this point eventually.

On a sidenote, what is the obsession with "doing a job I love"? I have a feeling this is a myth for most people. I work hard at my job, and if it sucks, then too bad. Until I have sufficient savings ("**** you money&quot, I'll take what I can get and try to make the best out of it.

 

[CJG_NYC]

Originally Posted by intent

You sound extremely naive for someone who's been in the legal industry for 9 years, even if you are a new attorney. While I'm just a 2L, I've read enough from other sources to piece together my own opinion.

The only LLM worth doing is tax, and that's if you go to a top school. Otherwise, in your field, I'd suggest you stick with the job you have, and try to lateral/move to a more suitable job when the opportunity arises. As you've noted, many others are being laid off at the moment. I'm very concerned that you've somehow managed three years of law schools and still wonder how legal jobs are found.

Personally, I suspect you're just at a point where you feel like you've made a bad choice, or that you're jaded about your profession. I'm sure everyone reaches this point eventually.

On a sidenote, what is the obsession with "doing a job I love"? I have a feeling this is a myth for most people. I work hard at my job, and if it sucks, then too bad. Until I have sufficient savings ("**** you money"), I'll take what I can get and try to make the best out of it.

Naive? Not at all. Everyone that goes to law school reads the same thing about tax-only LLM, yet if you actually met some people who work in very niche areas of law and notice that they have LLMs in that area, it makes you question the tax-only proposition (though, for the most part, I may agree that LLMs arent the best bang for your buck). That said, that is why I also added "Masters" programs in my question. I have been advised by many high profile Attorneys that a Masters wouldnt be a bad idea, my question mainly for this forum was "what kind" (MA? MPP?) - because I figured some here might have had one or more of such degrees.

What you are missing is that there is a big problem with being pigeon-holed into a certain field of law, and when your interest is in a more specialized area, like mine, doing Personal Injury law is not at all helpful for your cause when trying to "lateral." I am very well aware of how legal jobs are found, what you dont realize is that when the economy is as bad as it is now, every route out there, be it the summer associate route, or the government honors route, or the public interest route, is saturated (more than it normally is, if you can believe that).

As for your last comment. I wish I had your ability to just not care if my job sucks, but, unfortunately I want to have a passion for what I do, and would like to maybe even become a scholar in the field. Also, I've done the "work hard, if it sucks it sucks" thing for quite some time now, and I'm just done doing that -- so, I've reached a point where if the right job doesnt come around in the next 6-months, I'd like to at least go get further educated, and that is the sole purpose for this thread.

 

[intent]

Originally Posted by CJG_NYC

Naive? Not at all. Everyone that goes to law school reads the same thing about tax-only LLM, yet if you actually met some people who work in very niche areas of law and notice that they have LLMs in that area, it makes you question the tax-only proposition (though, for the most part, I may agree that LLMs arent the best bang for your buck). That said, that is why I also added "Masters" programs in my question. I have been advised by many high profile Attorneys that a Masters wouldnt be a bad idea, my question mainly for this forum was "what kind" (MA? MPP?) - because I figured some here might have had one or more of such degrees.

Alright then, realistically speaking, do we really think that a MA will be of benefit to a law school grad? I'm sure back in law school you've had classmates who have gone that route (or even had PhD degrees). Look where they ended up. They went into law school for a reason, be it for money, lack of employment, or a desire to improve. You've already noted yourself as a person who wants more out of what you do for a living, and preferably engage in a field that you enjoy. I just don't see getting a MA as a viable solution to your problems.

Being in school now, it's very difficult for me to see how or why you would give up working to get another degree. On the social side of things, many graduate students claim to be poor and are straight out of undergrad. Sure, the material and course load may be easier than law school, but you're piling on more debt and more wasted time that you could be otherwise using to work. As for employers, what do you think they'll believe when they look at your resume and see that you did a MA soon after your JD? That you couldn't cut it as an attorney despite your apparent book smarts?

If the matter is that you want to pursue the scholarly side of the law, schools are always looking for part-time instructors provided you have the qualifications. Those positions generally are available to those who only have JDs; no need for LLM or other higher academic programs. If you do get a foot in the door of academia and find that you enjoy teaching/research, then congratulations, and you don't even need a master degree.

I'm starting to repeat myself here, so I'll stop for now. I would like to also point out that I don't mean to sound as harsh as I seem on the Internet. I do sympathize with your plight --- having to go from the FCC to a personal injury firm. However, the fact that you point out the difficulty in the job market and think that you need to specialize seems to run contrary to the belief that another accessible grad school program would be the solution.

 

[Sebastian_Flyte]

>The only LLM worth doing is tax, and that's if you go to a top school.

+1

I largely agree with Intent's first post. Don't think graduate school will solve your problems-- that kind of thinking is what led to the lawyer glut in the first place.

Don't go back to law school or graduate school. Don't like your job? Find a better job. There's all kinds of small/mid firms in DC that deal with FCC/telecom law. Boutiques. If you want, PM me and i'll put you in touch with my one or two contact in that field.

 

[CJG_NYC]

Thank you both for your responses.

Intent:
you pretty much hit the nail on the head with my line of thinking. I'm just so aggravated lately with the current state of things that I feel the need to do something, ANYTHING, to change the pace. But, all of the things you mentioned about getting a masters: debt, how it looks to employers, etc. were things going through my mind. To be honest, its NOT at all what I want to do, I just figured I'd toss the idea out on here to see what others thought (to talk it out basically). I am completely in agreement with you. I think the only benefit of it for me would be that it would equate to a change of pace. The idea of more loans makes me shiver haha. Thanks for reaffirming my thoughts that this is more likely a bad idea than it is a good idea.

Sebastian:
Being down in DC I was able to make a lot of contacts, many who either work, worked, or knew people who work in small telecom boutiques. At this point I think I've officially sent a resume to all of them. It seems (who knows for sure) that most are not hiring. That said, thank you for your suggestion and input. Also, thanks for your willingness to provide me some contacts, I'll PM you, maybe we know some of the same folks!


Again, thank you both. I think my initial post was just sort of a vent for me. Its been a long year, and I just was hoping for a lot more upon my graduation from law school and I think I had just reached a point where I decided that anything different was better. Thanks for reminding me how silly it would be to pursue another degree right now!! I needed that slap in the face.

 

[TexasLidig8r]

As an aside, are you married to the DC area?

Have you seriously considered options in Silicon Valley, Austin, Texas, the Chicago area?

I know it would mean taking another bar exam but... investigation into quality of life should be a consideration.

 

[Fuuma]

Originally Posted by intent

You sound extremely naive for someone who's been in the legal industry for 9 years, even if you are a new attorney. While I'm just a 2L, I've read enough from other sources to piece together my own opinion.

The only LLM worth doing is tax, and that's if you go to a top school. Otherwise, in your field, I'd suggest you stick with the job you have, and try to lateral/move to a more suitable job when the opportunity arises. As you've noted, many others are being laid off at the moment. I'm very concerned that you've somehow managed three years of law schools and still wonder how legal jobs are found.

Personally, I suspect you're just at a point where you feel like you've made a bad choice, or that you're jaded about your profession. I'm sure everyone reaches this point eventually.

On a sidenote, what is the obsession with "doing a job I love"? I have a feeling this is a myth for most people. I work hard at my job, and if it sucks, then too bad. Until I have sufficient savings ("**** you money"), I'll take what I can get and try to make the best out of it.

Wait until you graduate to say you'll be fine with a job which you think sucks for 9 yrs. You're extremely naive...

 

[Big A]

Why don't you go back to school, get a Ph.D. in Communications, and become a Media Law professor?

Practically every journalism / mass comm program has mandatory media law courses, so there are jobs to be had. The best programs (at least east of the Mississippi) are supposedly at University of Florida, University of North Carolina - Chapel Hill, Northwestern, and Columbia. Of the four, Florida might (oddly) be the best since the main guy there (Dr. Chamberlin) basically invented the idea of a "Media Law" specialty and has former students teaching everywhere.

Just remember if you decide to look into it that conventional wisdom regarding "academic reputation" doesn't generally apply with respect to specialized grad programs. Depending on what you are looking for, your faculty advisor (i.e., the person you are "working with&quot is the most important consideration. There are very well-known and well-respected people working at places like LSU and Tennessee - not normally thought of bastions of academic achievement.

FWIW, I disagree that the ONLY worthwhile LLM is tax - an LLM in estate planning or EU law, for example, could get you a job. If you want to work in Europe, you pretty much must get an LLM at some point (though you could get the LLM in Europe). LLM programs are, for the most part, simply cash cows for U.S. law schools. In fact, I'm not sure most of them are targeted toward U.S. students in general - seems like most of them cater to foreign lawyers, who figure they might as well "study abroad" to get the LLM they'll need anyway.

 

[CJG_NYC]

Originally Posted by TexasLidig8r

As an aside, are you married to the DC area?

Have you seriously considered options in Silicon Valley, Austin, Texas, the Chicago area?

I know it would mean taking another bar exam but... investigation into quality of life should be a consideration.

I wouldnt say that I am "married" to the DC area at all. Though I really enjoyed it there, I wouldnt say I was married to the area. I have not "seriously considered" options in the above localities, but I have started to, thats for sure. Being a born and raised New Yorker makes the thought of moving anywhere a hard nut to swallow, but, I did love the DC area, and like you said, I've seriously been taking quality of life into consideration.

Originally Posted by Big A

Why don't you go back to school, get a Ph.D. in Communications, and become a Media Law professor?

Practically every journalism / mass comm program has mandatory media law courses, so there are jobs to be had. The best programs (at least east of the Mississippi) are supposedly at University of Florida, University of North Carolina - Chapel Hill, Northwestern, and Columbia. Of the four, Florida might (oddly) be the best since the main guy there (Dr. Chamberlin) basically invented the idea of a "Media Law" specialty and has former students teaching everywhere.

Just remember if you decide to look into it that conventional wisdom regarding "academic reputation" doesn't generally apply with respect to specialized grad programs. Depending on what you are looking for, your faculty advisor (i.e., the person you are "working with") is the most important consideration. There are very well-known and well-respected people working at places like LSU and Tennessee - not normally thought of bastions of academic achievement.

FWIW, I disagree that the ONLY worthwhile LLM is tax - an LLM in estate planning or EU law, for example, could get you a job. If you want to work in Europe, you pretty much must get an LLM at some point (though you could get the LLM in Europe). LLM programs are, for the most part, simply cash cows for U.S. law schools. In fact, I'm not sure most of them are targeted toward U.S. students in general - seems like most of them cater to foreign lawyers, who figure they might as well "study abroad" to get the LLM they'll need anyway.

Big A - Thanks for the insightful post. To be honest, I had not thought of getting a PhD, but that is actually an interesting route that I will certainly look into.

As for the LLM thing. I think the only reason some of them "get you jobs" is because the program just gives you more contacts into that "specialized" field. Essentially, I think you're just paying for the Professors to help you network a bit haha. I also agree, the LLM is really geared toward foreign educated students.

 

[sjg22]

Originally Posted by intent

You sound extremely naive for someone who's been in the legal industry for 9 years, even if you are a new attorney. While I'm just a 2L, I've read enough from other sources to piece together my own opinion.

The only LLM worth doing is tax, and that's if you go to a top school. Otherwise, in your field, I'd suggest you stick with the job you have, and try to lateral/move to a more suitable job when the opportunity arises. As you've noted, many others are being laid off at the moment. I'm very concerned that you've somehow managed three years of law schools and still wonder how legal jobs are found.

Personally, I suspect you're just at a point where you feel like you've made a bad choice, or that you're jaded about your profession. I'm sure everyone reaches this point eventually.

On a sidenote, what is the obsession with "doing a job I love"? I have a feeling this is a myth for most people. I work hard at my job, and if it sucks, then too bad. Until I have sufficient savings ("**** you money"), I'll take what I can get and try to make the best out of it.


You sound like every 2L I've ever met (including myself when I was a 2L). The law game sounds pretty damn fantastic (especially when the economy was killing it a few years ago) when you're in your second year of law. All I will say is this: work a few years and then re-read this post and see if your opinion changes. Until then, just so you don't make a bunch of comments that you will look back on and chuckle to yourself about, I'd keep your employment suggestions for10-year law vets to yourself there, Johnny Cochrane.

 

[RJman]

Originally Posted by sjg22

You sound like every 2L I've ever met (including myself when I was a 2L). The law game sounds pretty damn fantastic (especially when the economy was killing it a few years ago) when you're in your second year of law. All I will say is this: work a few years and then re-read this post and see if your opinion changes. Until then, just so you don't make a bunch of comments that you will look back on and chuckle to yourself about, I'd keep your employment suggestions for10-year law vets to yourself there, Johnny Cochrane.

+1.

Hubris is a *************.

 

[Germanico]

I use my law degree as a bookmark.

 

[odoreater]

Why not talk to the people in your current firm and see if they'll let you start a new practice area within your firm doing media/communications law in exchange for some sharing of the fees generated from the matters you bring in? Then, go out and market yourself in that area and try to score clients.

Doing media law is not just about working for the FCC. For instance, you can represent the folks that are dragged in front of the FCC, you can represent communications providers, you can represent businesses in cases against communications providers (I've done these types of cases, representing bars accused of showing patrons programming that the satellite or cable provider argues they are not permitted to publicly show), etc. Just be creative.

 

[Big A]

I just skimmed this gem of a post. Now that I've read it more closely, some thoughts:

Originally Posted by intent

You sound extremely naive for someone who's been in the legal industry for 9 years, even if you are a new attorney. While I'm just a 2L, I've read enough from other sources to piece together my own opinion.

The part I've emphasized was very helpful in ascribing the appropriate amount of weight (to wit: none) to the rest of your post.

Originally Posted by intent

On a sidenote, what is the obsession with "doing a job I love"? I have a feeling this is a myth for most people. I work hard at my job, and if it sucks, then too bad. Until I have sufficient savings ("**** you money"), I'll take what I can get and try to make the best out of it.

Good luck finding a job in the first place, especially if you are indeed at the "Harvard of Portland."